Daily Thunder.com

http://thehasbeenssports.com/
thunder is third in the west

@Chuck
True. But Collison's contract expires after this season. I'd love to see him come back though..

Greg :@KeithAlso another way we’d let Green walk would be acquiring a legit 4 like West or Landry. I’ve never really seen Nene play much 4, but Justin claims he’d do a lot of damage there.

Serge Ibaka and Nick Collison are legit 4's. I think they complement each other well. Having Aldrich and Mullins (if both stay in OKC) allows Collison to move back to PF.

Hunt :I don’t know if this has been posted but for those talking about the clippers pick:
The Thunder will receive the Clippers’ first-round selection in 2012 if it’s outside of the top 10. If L.A. lands the 10th pick or higher, it will keep the selection. The pick, however, will roll over into the 2013 draft should L.A. retain the selection in 2012. Oklahoma City will have a five-year window starting with the 2012 draft to acquire the pick before it permanently remains with the Clippers

So if the pick remains in the top ten for five years, no pick for us?

I don't know if this has been posted but for those talking about the clippers pick:

The Thunder will receive the Clippers' first-round selection in 2012 if it's outside of the top 10. If L.A. lands the 10th pick or higher, it will keep the selection. The pick, however, will roll over into the 2013 draft should L.A. retain the selection in 2012. Oklahoma City will have a five-year window starting with the 2012 draft to acquire the pick before it permanently remains with the Clippers

There are 9 current GMs who have seen their team go to the Finals. 5 did it multiple times. Looks like all or nearly all did it within 5 years.

If you had a draft for GMs they would go high.

Presti has done a lot right. They are in a good position to go further.

@Greg

Thanks for the compliment.

And thanks to all for the discussion and some patience / tolerance with occasionally contrasting views.

(Another minor correction: it was 17 who have won a division title. I miscounted in the second mention.)

The things I like about Presti is his vision and consistency.
I expect Thunder to be a championship contender in near future, able to retain their core players and have top 10 draft pick.

The 17 who have won a division title before do so more often, on average every 3 years. When Morey and Presti hit 6 seasons will they have their 2? They've got to go 2 for 3 to hit the top half of GMs average. Or give them 9 years and they need to go 3 for 6.

(I should have said Morey has been GM 3 years. He also served one year as GM in waiting.)

@Crow
You make great points. There are certainly more proven GMs in the league than Presti and Morey. Presti resurrected the Thunder, and his biggest challenge lies ahead with what to do with all of these assets.

I shouldn't have put Kerr is an elite group. Dumars I left out on purpose but he still deserves some props.

Smith is Otis Smith.

Being around longer is an advantage.

Some started from easier positions. Morey started from an easier position than Presti.

Some GMs indeed are up and down and their success may be more the product of circumstances and luck than great talent.

I hear and agree with much of your sides. I just wanted to try to put out the other side for a little more balance.

There are 2 sides to it and I am clearly taking one side, the less popular, less traveled side.

Of current GMs on average as a group they are probably a bit better than popular opinion and have made the playoffs 66% of the time in their careers and won their division about once every 4 years. Morey and Presti haven't done that later thing yet. That is not that important itself but it is one easy to determine / cite mid-level sign of success.

Martin is farther below average on defensive impact than he is above of offensive impact according to Adjusted +/- and he has a long / pretty big contract to go with his injury history and lack of team success. I know the trade is bigger than that and maybe good overall for the circumstances but he was the centerpiece. There is always the unknowable / unproven possibility that something better might have been possible, even as simple as letting McGrady's contract expire and eventually using the room that could have been created later on future players compared to having Martin on the books.

I think Kahn is the best GM. He collects 7 top 7 picks in his roster. No team is better than that.

Glad you didn't list Dumars, who won division after division and a championship. But since then has fallen off the face of the earth by trading Chauncey Billups for AI (gawd-awful trade) and overpaying for the likes of Charlie V and Ben Gordon.

But neither GM has proven yet that they can make a competitive team a championship contending team (haven't had the time yet). Both franchises are on the brink, and could very well elevate to that level within a season or two. But judging the impact of both GMs to their franchises up to this point, they're incredibly instrumental to their teams' success and bright futures respectively.

@Crow
I think you could argue for them over a number of those you list. Being in LA or (as recent history has shown) Miami is a distinct advantage for some GM's and makes their life easier. Superstars help a lot too. Having a Kobe (Kupchak wasn't the GM when he was drafted, right? That was still West), lucking into a LeBron (Ferry) or Durant (yes...having Durant is certainly helping Presti) or Duncan (Buford) is also a HUGE advantage. I thought Ainge was horrible until he made the Garnett trade. I still think it was a gift (like Gasol was to Kupchak), but you have to give the GM's credit when they were the ones that made the lopsided trade.

I'd put both Presti and Morey above Ferry, Nelson, and Kerr right now (who is Smith? I'm having a brainlock). I think they hold their own against the others. I'd actually take them over all the people you listed, but I'm a homer.

@Crow
Like I said, top 5 may be a bit premature. But I'd be willing to bet those 16 GMs have been in their positions longer than Presti and Morey. I'm just basing their value on what they have done, not what they haven't. Both have been GMs what, 3 seasons? They've proven a lot to me in that very little time. Whether it be transactions, spending, talent evaluation, you name it. Both have been very impressive so far and are tremendous at capitalizing on desperate and vulnerable GMs.

Crow :
I rather call them top 10 in the league and rising until they get their team out of the second round.

I do understand what you are saying and I agree. But from where they started (Thunder) and/or the injuries their teams have endured (Rockets), I think one would have to say they've both done great. It appears you agree with that, at least to some level (based on your other comments).

Are they "better" right now than Kupchak, Ainge Buford and Riley? 11 titles there.

Ferry, Smith, Nelson, Kerr have pretty good batting averages for conference final appearances.

A total of 16 GMs have won their division before but Morey and Presti are in the top 5 already?

@Crow
True. Top 5 may be a bit premature. But if a team could have their pick of any GM in the league (whether available or not), I would think Presti is really high up there on the list. It's hard to hold not advancing in the playoffs against him considering his very short time as a GM.

Because there are clearly quite a few incompetent GMs in the league, I'd have a hard time picking 5 GMs I'd rather have than Presti. Probably the same with Morey.

Crow - I'm surprised you weren't impressed by the Martin trade...particularly with the draft pick compensation and Jordan Hill also being part of the haul for, effectively, Landry (who was great, but still a back-up behind Scola), a washed up T-Mac, and some cap-space (i.e., taking on Jeffries for a little over a year). While Martin may be below-average defensively, he's very efficient offensively and seems like he'll be even better for the Rockets once Yao is demanding double teams and giving him more room. Hill looked a lot better on the Rockets than he did on the Knicks, too. You obviously need to see how the Knicks picks turn out - but that just seemed like an incredible deal to me. He knew the Knicks were desperate to open up cap space and he squeezed that desperation for everything he could.

I rather call them top 10 in the league and rising until they get their team out of the second round.

Yes they are both above average GMs on talent and effort. I just think the total praise and trust is ahead of the most important accomplishment that truly defines top GMs.

@Kivman

"Are you disagreeing with something I said?"

Not really. But I was offering a somewhat different take of my own.

"in Morey / Presti trust" is a sign of faith and positive impression about efforts but neither has depth of accomplishment by typical contender level standards. i.e. significant and regular playoff advancement. The four year before Morey had 1 series win just as the 4 years with Morey has. Regular season they've won only 5% more.

"Do you dislike the moves Morey has made?"

I am not as impressed with acquiring Ariza or Martin (which included losing Landry) as most.

@Kivman
I think they're both top 5 in the league. I'm not sure Crow was disagreeing with the notion that they are 2 of the best GMs in the league, just pointing out they haven't won a whole lot yet. But I think Crow would agree in that both GMs have put their respective franchises in great places with bright futures.

Houston will net a top 10, maybe even top 5, from that NYK pick. I can't imagine Amare and a bunch of so-so's making the playoffs, even in the east. But the East is brutal after the top 5 or 6 teams.. so who knows.

@Kivman

Oh I agree Morey's done well with what he was given.

@Greg

Summer league isn't the NBA but Samhan is doing what he can- 10 pts on 48% FG% and 7 rebs (15th best out of over 300) in 26 minutes a game so far. And if he sticks with Dallas would be another good move on their part with no draft pick, no baggage taken on and probably a minimum salary.

Presti:
Turning the Rashard signing by the Magic into, essentially, 3 1st round picks was GOLD!
Drafting Westbrook - GOLD!
Drafting Ibaka - ummm...Silver? With the potential for GOLD?!?
Trading nothing (okay Justin...trading opportunity cost) for Maynor - GOLD!
Trading one year of cap space for Cole - Potential GOLD!

Morey:
McGrady & Landry for Martin, Hill, and future first from the Knicks - GOLD
Drafting Landy, Brooks, Patterson, Buddinger without any high draft picks - GOLD
Trading, essentially, a couple of lower firsts for Artest - pretty good (Silver?)
Losing Artest and picking up Ariza (kind of like a swap with the Lakers) - pretty good

Basically, I think they are both top-notch GM's.

Do you think Presti DOESN'T have the Thunder headed in the right direction? Do you dislike the moves Morey has made? Do you blame Morey for Yao's injuries? Do you blame Presti for taking over a horrible team?

Crow :@Kivman

So far Morey has one playoff series won after a few years of not. Presti, 1 appearance. Both will need to add a lot to the list of playoff accomplishments.

Agreed. Are you disagreeing with something I said?

Why is JR Smith playing in Vegas?

The second take was the right one.

@Kivman

So far Morey has one playoff series won after a few years of not. Presti, 1 appearance. Both will need to add a lot to the list of playoff accomplishments.

@Kivman

Morey and Presti both stand at one playoff series won after a few years of not. Both will need to add a lot to the list of playoff accomplishments.

Roddy Buckets did terrible today, wonder what his deal was. Dominique Jones lit it up though. And a guy who's looked surprisingly good in the box score is Omar Samhan.

Thornton had a pretty good start. Similar jump shooters, Thornton was the better finisher compared to Harden. Harden the better clutch scorer but Thornton tried to fill that role twice as often.

5th year for Scola is only partially guaranteed. He'll be, what? 35? I could see them cutting ties after the 4th. I wonder what the partial guarantee is as well as 5th year salary. It's probably more of a 4-year $38 mill contract, if you think of it that way.

justin :
Luis Scola agrees to 5/47 from the Rockets.
Pretty big deal for him. Locks the Rockets into this group with all the long term $$$ they have commited now to Scola, Lowry, Ariza, etc.

They also have a lot coming off the books next year: Ming, Battier, Jeffries, Andersen, Hayes. It's possible that they only re-sign Ming (if healthy) and/or Battier (to a lesser deal?). They also have a lot of good players for possible trades (double and tripled up at most positions except Center). And, of course, they've got the better of their 1st and the Knicks 1st next year PLUS the Knicks 1st in 2012. All in all, they've got a lot to work with. I don't see why they are "locked into" these players long term. Players get traded all the time. Overall I think Morey's done a great job. Just like a lot of people here like to say "In Presti We Trust"...a lot of Rockets fans say "In Morey We Trust."

@jdstorm

when he's 36?

Thad Young's availability probably depends on what happens with Igoudala. If they end up trading Iggy then they'll bring back Young. If not and they can't get him for a reasonable price they may agree to trade him.

Depending on what happens at the SG position, picking up Thornton wouldn't be a bad idea IMO. He can flat out score and if Harden becomes the starter he'd be a great scoring punch to have on the bench.

They think that Battier, Ariza, Lowry and Yao (and Hayes?) is enough to still have the defense; and that Brooks, Martin, Budinger and the rest will make a stronger offense but with most you trade off offense or defense for the other. Almost none of these guys are truly strong 2 way players at team impact level. They have never been above average on offense before with Yao. With their cast now that might be able to do that but any time with Brooks or Martin or both will hurt the defense.

@Greg
Id rather put together an extreme package for tim duncan, when he expires in 2 years

Crow :They are trying to compete now and reload somewhat for the future. I don’t know how long or good their window to compete is with Yao. I am not a huge supporter of what they have all things considered but it was worked fairly well before.

They have completely changed their approach. From a defense, nitty gritty team to one that's going to score a lot of points and shoot...

They are trying to compete now and reload somewhat for the future. I don't know how long or good their window to compete is with Yao. I am not a huge supporter of what they have all things considered but it was worked fairly well before.

@Greg no thanks

@Crow
Yeah it was a pipe dream. Basically whatever it took to get Dwight, and I really like Dragic. But I also really like our team.. so it was mainly a fantasy.

@justin

I am surprised they went that high and without a formal offer submitted. But maybe he will be used to sell Yao on staying and then, at some point later, traded?

@Greg

Ha. A 6-7 to 1 for Howard is a pretty extreme dream but I agree with the attraction of a big upgrade somewhere, even at a big price. If not now or February, maybe next summer or not that long after, if they are not still moving forward fast enough to where they want to be. But I was thinking more of a 3 for 1 or 4 for 2 type trade.

"The Thunder passed 100,000 fans on Facebook. Cool! Currently, Daily Thunder has only 193. WHAT THE HECK PEOPLE?"

Well, DT is an elite group, you see.It's like that line from Men in Black. The best of the best of the best. Sir.