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I just hope Jeff Green doesn't read DT. The vast majority of Thunder fans appreciate his hardwork and unselfishness. I understand everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but I'll trust Coach Brooks to do what's best for the team.

That's great but I hope they get plenty of rest for the upcoming season.

I remember an article on this blog by Clark Matthews several months ago called the Jeff Green Conundrum. It had about 600 comments on it, and I've referred to it several times since.

The discussion in the comments is a bit hard to follow, since there are about 4 main themes in it, but the one main theme that I was trying to get across is that Jeff's on-court production is only half his fault. Just like @98hoya22 implied, the system and Jeff's role in that system is not ideal for him. One of the main things that Jeff is good at (perimeter defense) precludes him from obtaining big rebounding numbers. He is a 3 playing the 4, which means he's undersized when playing post defense. I could go on and on, and most basketball minds around here know all this.

To Jeff's credit, he has a great attitude and plays a style that does not compliment his strengths and you never hear a negative word about it.

Justin isn't the only comments who 'hates' on Jeff Green. Justin comments the most often, so he is the one we like to call out. Justin is only saying the above opinion with stats to back it up. If your qualitative basketball eye-test is backed up by quantitative data, then it is confirmation. Without confirmation, your conclusions are most likely incomplete. You need both.

The reason this is constantly brought up is because there are stated opinions that are ignoring the quantitative side of the argument, or more likely misusing them. It's appropriate to inject the other side of the coin when it is missing.

It is my opinion that IF we (fans on this blog) require Jeff to adjust his game-planning to match the opponent, we have to first require it of our coaching staff. Which is asking more of Jeff than we ask of any other player on our roster. We want Jeff to do those things he's good at, but also do those things that he's not good at, and I don't think his role on the team will ever allow him to do both.

It's easy to shake our heads at how well Pau Gasol produced in that Laker series, and he is the guy Jeff was responsible for. It's easy to shake our heads at how little Jeff did on the offensive end. We can see several ways that Jeff didn't take advantage of his matchup on offense. I can't think of anything else Jeff could have done on the defensive end. Jeff just isn't the physical body that it requires to guard Gasol in the post. Jeff was set up for failure from the start. He just can't do that job one on one. When his teammates couldn't help, he was toast.

Jeff missed lots of open jump shots in that series. Thats his fault. Jeff didn't use his quickness to score, that's only half his fault. The other half of that fault belongs to the staff for not insisting that he do it. They didn't make the offensive adjustment for him. Maybe they tried, but I know Jeff well enough to know that if they asked him to concentrate on that goal then we would have at least seen him attempt it.

The main, bottom line point that we make over and over again is that Jeff is not used in a way that best suits his talent. That's not completely his fault. I don't know how many times I have said this, or Justin, or anyone else with that opinion. But, I'll try to mention the coaching staff more often when discussing Green, because in all reality they are half of the 'problem'.

@98hoya22

If the Thunder arent utilizing Greens passing, rebounding and scoring; what exactly are they utilizing.

I would argue that Green has ample opportunities to score and that many of his deficincies in rebounding stem from his sub par defense. There's a reason why he's always defending the shooter.

I also think Green would be a good 6th man. But I feel at times he is submissive and lacks tenacity on the offensive end.

Anonymous :@justinHere’s my theory, just came up with this on the way to work. I have been a Thunderer since they came to OKC, so all I’ve known is them going from 23 wins to 50 wins, and the 2 playoff games I went to were the most incredible sporting events in my life. So I’d say Oklahoma Thunderers are still in the honeymoon period, we’ve only experienced tremendous growth. I would guess you were a Sonics fan? I think the longer someone is a fan of a team, the more things they pick out to criticize (I could go on for days, maybe weeks, about the Chiefs and Royals). So what I’m saying is, I understand, and in a few years, I’ll probably be criticizing right there with you. Just a morning drive theory though.

And I also understand that there are fans who are relatively new to the NBA and whose experiences are '23 wins to 50 wins'. Our points of view do not invalidate or support any of our opinions, though as you say they might be a catalyst for them.

It bugs me that, instead of contesting some of the criticisms of Jeff Green (or any of our players), most here react dismissively. Or even with the assertion that, because I'm not sure a player fits this team, I'm not a fan. That's ridiculous. I'll argue Jeff Green and why I don't think he's a good fit here on and on, but it's impossible to be rational when the other side is emotional.

I think maybe the t-wolves would have been better off with Simmons, Howdy Doody, Isaiah Thomas, or anyone on this board as their GM for that matter rather than facing the wrath of KAHHHHHHHHHHHN!!! Can t-wolves fans not second guess him?

Also, I got a season ticket holder e-mail from the Thunder today, that seemed to be announcing that Green, Westbrook (agent 0 is the nickname, by the way), and Durant made the team. Not made the cut, but actually made the team. I don't know if that was just an error by public relations, tho.

@Anonymous
/\
that was me, sorry

@98hoya22
I like this post! I think you make some good points about why JG is so under-whelming stat wise, and why the players and coaches seem to be so in love with him. He is a team player.

I think my opinion is that we have to consider whether it is worth keeping him around if he demands >7mil/yr. We need him to play significant min off the bench IMO and he can be a special player for the thunder in the future. maybe paired with a rebounder (cole) he will be more efficient at the 4, but we can't afford to overpay him either.

I've been reading Daily Thunder since before the playoffs (great site Royce) and I've been impressed by the good writing and the smart comments. But I'm only interested in the Thunder because of Jeff Green, so it saddens me that he is so much maligned here. You've convinced me that maybe he isn't the best fit for the Thunder since his natural position is the same as KD's. But here are 3 points that I think are worth including about Jeff Green:

As someone who has watched him in almost every game he's ever played, from freshman year of college to the NBA, I can see that he has a lot of skills that the Thunder have no intention of utilizing. Namely, passing, rebounding and scoring.

1) In college, immersed in a shot-clock draining, precision-passing Princeton offense, he stood out for his amazing court awareness and thread-the-needle passing. In the NBA, his role in the offense doesn't present a lot of passing opportunities. Especially considering he's paired with a prolific jump-shooting mega-star. It's not that Jeff Green is a poor passer. It's that anyone playing the 4 in the Thunder offense is not going to have a lot of chances to create assists.

2) A lot of rebounds are discretionary. Especially on a good defensive team like the Thunder. The guy challenging the jump shooter (which appears to be Jeff a lot of the time) is not in any position to grab the rebound. Also, if there is a rebound among only Thunder players, Jeff immediately turns and gets out on the wing for the fast break, leaving the stat-stuffing to someone else. He can be over powered by bigger, stronger players, but it's a rare player who isn't.

3) Jeff was the best player on a college team w/ multiple NBA players. He took a lot of offensive responsibility - especially off the dribble in crunch time. When he got to the NBA, he was paired with an all-time elite scoring machine. I don't think the Thunder want Jeff slashing to the basket with the ball. They don't want him getting in KD's way. That's fine, but you're blaming Jeff for not developing this offensive skill set - he's got it, they just don't need/want it.

On the play that could have extended the Thunder's season to at least a game 7, the Thunder iso'ed KD and RW. It looked bad from the set-up, went nowhere and produced nothing. At no point could that play have been successful. There was Jeff Green just floating in the corner, the closest man was 10 feet away and it was Derek Fisher. The Lakers were so confident that Jeff would not be an option, they stuck their little point guard on him and I don't think Fisher even looked in Jeff's direction. Of course I wanted KD to take that shot for Thunder. But when the other team takes your first option away, it's nice to know what else you've got on the court.

I think the Thunder won 50 games because of Jeff's presence. Were they truly a 55 win team held back by his limitations? I don't know I think it's worth another year to try to incorporate his under-utilized skills into a really promising KD-led framework.

I actually think Jeff Green would be a great 6th man, that's my opinion on Jeff Green. But those are all good reasons to think he's pretty good. You left out because he played the second most minutes on a team that went from 23 wins to 50 wins without adding a major new piece, and played the champs tougher than anyone but Boston. But I guess if I have the same opinion as anyone else, it can't be my opinion?

gr8ball83 :@justinSo I can’t think for myself since I don’t feel the need to criticize Jeff Green on every thread on this entire site, whether the story has anything to do with him or not? If that means I can’t think for myself, I’m fine with that.

I'd feel a little bit better about your capacity to think for yourself if your opinions (that I've seen) were your own. 'Jeff Green is good because Sam Presti drafted him'. 'Jeff Green is good because he's on Team USA'. 'Jeff Green is good because he made the first cut'.

There's nothing wrong with being a cheerleader, until you scrutinize other's "knowledge" (your quotes) without substantiation.

@justin
So I can't think for myself since I don't feel the need to criticize Jeff Green on every thread on this entire site, whether the story has anything to do with him or not? If that means I can't think for myself, I'm fine with that.

Gr8ball83 :@JustinI never said people shouldn’t have opinions. I think I said I lol at the opinions, and I like loling.

That's fine, because I 'lol' at people who can't think for themselves. :)

@Justin
I never said people shouldn't have opinions. I think I said I lol at the opinions, and I like loling.

gr8ball83 :So I’ve been reading DailyThunder as long as its been posted, and have read the comments roughly as long, and I can’t help but lol to myself at all of the people on here (none of which I’m assuming have NBA front office or coaching experience? correct me if I’m wrong….) that are convinced they are better talent evaluators, and know more about putting together an NBA team, and coaching an NBA team than people like Sam Presti, Scott Brooks, Cho, etc. How are you guys not NBA GM’s with all of this “knowledge”?? And really, you think Team USA is going to keep Jeff Green for locker room and off court reasons, after saying for months that the Thunder would be crazy to do that same thing?

Nobody here is an NBA GM or coach but it doesn't mean people here are not knowledgable enough to have opinions. Sam Presti, Scott Brooks, Rich Cho, they've all made mistakes. Agreeing with their decisions just because they are 'their decisions' is fine for some people, I guess. Might as well shut this place down if everyone should be agreeing with the front office just because they have more experience. Do you vote? Why bother, others have more political experience than you.

I don't know, to me if you're having to support your opinions with the premise that 'hey This Guy made the decision, it has to be right', then you don't even have an opinion in the first place.

@Kivman
7 hrs, 10 mins ago
I just meant our gm and coach, since Brooks was coach of the year, and presti is one of the best gms in the league. And I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if your opinion is that Brooks and presti don't know what they're doing at this point, I don't think you'll find much support for that (outside of this message board).

i heard "the swiss miss" for thabo. i thought it was creative lol

Wow...this discussion has gotten a little nastier than most on this site. That's unfortunate.

My only comment is that the opinion of gr8ball83 (as agreed to by GAP and "Anonymous") is that basically no one should ever criticize anything that any NBA front office or coach think or do unless they themselves have front office or coaching experience. So no front office or coach ever makes a mistake? You really think Presti or Brooks never makes mistakes? If we subscribe to your criteria, this board will become a very boring place.

@holdmymartian

Nenad's nickname is Curly (correctly spelled Krle).

Anonymous
2 mins ago
didn’t say dumb. was talking about being right or best based on having the job.

Well then I agree with you on Obama too in that case. But I'm not sure our gm and coach are doing as bad a job as him.... Or as a lot of people on this board seem to think.

Anonymous
14 mins ago
ooo burn, lol, you said it.

I guess the Pope. Obama and the head of BP know everything. I mean they got the jobs.

Well I think the pope is creepy and I'm pretty sure intelligence isn't necessarily required for that job. But if you're suggesting that presidents of the united states are dumb, or CEOs of multi-billion dollar corporations are dumb, I'd love to know what jobs smart people like you get.

Oops thanks @anonymous

@gr8ball83
Well said. What I have been saying for a while.

Green is the kind of player GMs, coaches and teammates value. Not so clear to the average fan...

Maybe when Westbrook said Paul Gasol and Rasheed Wallace were two of his favorite players because they're "great teammates" is an understood opinion that Kobe might not be a great teammate. That's one wild speculative sign that he may not bounce for LA.

That and he appreciates the value of good teammates, which he has here.

After watching the playoff series again, Krstic really does miss multiple gimmes every game it seems. I really hope Aldrich makes a push to start early.

So we have:
C-Krstic(Don't know a nickname),Aldrich(Cole 45.,Biff)
PF-Green(Uncle Jeff),Collison(Don't know a nickname),Ibaka(Air Congo, Dr. Nasty)
SF-Durant(Durantula),Peterson(Mo Pete)
SG-Thabo(Don't know a nickname),Harden(The Beard)
PG-Westbrook(Don't know a nickname),Maynor(Don't know a nickname)
And of course, "Lord"Byron Mullens.

@gr8ball83
sorry, not so much the flat top, I think maybe he had one Freshman year or something? Brother is an enormously annoying KU fan, so that's my source.

@holdmymartian
supposedly at KU his nickname was Biff, as in Biff from Back To The Future(the flat top and everything, looks pretty similar)

@gr8ball83
It makes me remember Bill Simmons wanted to get GM of T-wolves,but we all know the result.
I dont think anyone who posts in this blog wants to replace Sam or Scott,they just want share their points to others

Totally off topic but does Aldrich have a nickname?

gr8ball83 :So I’ve been reading DailyThunder as long as its been posted, and have read the comments roughly as long, and I can’t help but lol to myself at all of the people on here (none of which I’m assuming have NBA front office or coaching experience? correct me if I’m wrong….) that are convinced they are better talent evaluators, and know more about putting together an NBA team, and coaching an NBA team than people like Sam Presti, Scott Brooks, Cho, etc. How are you guys not NBA GM’s with all of this “knowledge”?? And really, you think Team USA is going to keep Jeff Green for locker room and off court reasons, after saying for months that the Thunder would be crazy to do that same thing?

WOW!! Loved every word of this one.

As a thunder fan I am ecstatic Green made the cut

So I've been reading DailyThunder as long as its been posted, and have read the comments roughly as long, and I can't help but lol to myself at all of the people on here (none of which I'm assuming have NBA front office or coaching experience? correct me if I'm wrong....) that are convinced they are better talent evaluators, and know more about putting together an NBA team, and coaching an NBA team than people like Sam Presti, Scott Brooks, Cho, etc. How are you guys not NBA GM's with all of this "knowledge"?? And really, you think Team USA is going to keep Jeff Green for locker room and off court reasons, after saying for months that the Thunder would be crazy to do that same thing?

@shiki=4 seasons
He's recovering from mono.

It is said Lopez was ill offseason and lost his weight 25 pounds.It is not clear whether he is all right now.Maybe Love plays C to replace him and Green play PF

One of Gordon/Rondo/Billups has to go (Gordon's definitely the odd man out there, even though I'm not high on Chauncey), along with one of Iggy/Granger/Gay (I think Granger goes there) and then one of Green/Love/Lopez and Green likely odd man out there.

Didn't put Westbrook because I doubt K would out him in such a way, and not have future plans with him.

@f5alcon
I have strong doubts he makes it. Despite him starting over Love in the exhibition game, I don't see or think Love should be cut. Only way Green gets in is if Lopez still isn't up to speed, but then we'd have only one true center (not the most durable one either). Outside of any other injury, I don't see how he'd make it.

i want green to make the team because i doubt he would start and we can have an idea of his effectiveness off the bench

If Green made the final 12 I think some people on here would lose their mind.

i wonder if green is a better lockerroom presence, could be a lot of offcourt things that go into it.

@justin
So you're telling me Green being picked over Wallace had nothing to do with what they do on the basketball court? Talk about assuming..

Greg :@SammyWell I don’t know what to tell you, other than I guess some of the best basketball coaches in the world are just wrong?
Wallace is also known for his versatility too, so there goes that argument. Green is definitely a better defender on the perimeter and possibly in the international game as well. Obviously the coaching staff feels Green is a better fit not only on the team, but maybe his skills are better suited in FIBA than those of Wallace.

Green's not a better defender than Gerald Wallace in any capacity, you're nuts.

I've heard the 'better suited to FIBA' argument, but no one's bothered to explain why that would be the case. For a team desperately in need of size defensively, it just seems odd to me to remove such an amazing shot-blocker and physical defender in Wallace.

@Sammy
Well I don't know what to tell you, other than I guess some of the best basketball coaches in the world are just wrong?

Wallace is also known for his versatility too, so there goes that argument. Green is definitely a better defender on the perimeter and possibly in the international game as well. Obviously the coaching staff feels Green is a better fit not only on the team, but maybe his skills are better suited in FIBA than those of Wallace.

@Greg
Why does it have to be a conspiracy? My theory is that Green is a very likable player - he gives 100 percent at all times, he obviously cares about the game very much, he's perceived to be a good mid-range and outside threat - and the combination of his effort and 'versatility' endears him to coaches and fans alike. 'Versatile' is always the first adjective used to describe Green, because he has so many skills; the problem is, at least on offense, he's not very efficient at any of those numerous skills. Defensively I don't see how Gerald Wallace wouldn't be way better than Green.

Sammy :@Greg

Do you honestly believe that Jeff Green is a superior player to Gerald Wallace? In what aspects?

When did I ever say Green was better than Wallace? For whatever reason Green is apparently a better fit on Team USA than Wallace. Wallace completely disappeared in that game, just as he did in the real all-star game. Green was very active.

Like I said though, don't ask me. Let me guess, it's some sort of conspiracy that Green didn't get cut?

@Greg
Do you honestly believe that Jeff Green is a superior player to Gerald Wallace? In what aspects?

@justin
You're right. I'm not sure why they would make personnel decisions based on the performances in the most game-like setting before real play starts.

I'd wager Gerald Wallace's 4 pt, 0 rebound, 0-4 from 3 pt range, game had something to do with his quick exit.

I also think it's stupid that Rose appears to be the lock to be the starter. I'd want a much better distributor in that role.

Greg :If you’re on the bubble, you might want to do better than 5 points and 5 fouls in over 20 minutes of play in an important scrimmage.

It was an exhibition game for television. I don't think they are making player personnel decisions based on that, or we'd see Brook Lopez off the team already. It'd be like benching someone for performing poorly in the All Star game.