Daily Thunder.com

@ThunderHorn

He is a substantially better passer and shooter, especially midrange. He's better at everything except perimeter defense, really.

@justin

His usage on this team would go down, he'll also be playing in a different system, and probably playing a different role than he was asked to in Minnesota, but I guess the stats will just transfer over right? LOL

Maybe you should actually watch some games of these guys.

Love is a better rebounder than Green and a better post defender. Thats about it. Love is not substantially better at anything else.

Love+Brewer for Green+Harden? ROFLCOPTER.

We have a budding David Kahn over here.

@ThunderHorn

Get out of here with 'points and rebounds'. Scoring efficiency, rebounding rate, passing, all of these Love is better than Green, in some cases substantially - and most of these things he improved on his first season. Go look at basketball-reference.com and consider more than 'points and rebounds' when evaluating a player...

Same skillset as Aldrich? LOL.

@Greg

Brewer COULD be the starter, but wouldn't be guaranteed by any stretch and either way Sef/Brewer <<<<<< Sef/Harden.

@justin

Love improved by 3 points and 2 rebounds....not exactly considerable improvement. Love would be an upgrade over Green at the PF position. He'd be a better rebounder and would provide stronger defense in the post but thats it. He plays below the rim and provides no versatility. He brings more or less the same skill set as Aldrich...probably better offensively than Cole, worse defensively, and equal rebounders.

The trade is whether Love+Brewer would make this team better than Green+Harden and the answer is no it wouldn't.

If you call Harden for Love equal(not the case IMO), than you wouldn't do it based on the Green for Brewer being a significant downgrade.

Harden for Love would be plum wrong. Hardens going to explode and we have a powerforward. Ibakas his name. The drop off at Sg would be horrendous. Think about it.

justin :@Bryan

Four paragraphs defending Green, nothing about basketball. That’s what I mean.
We’ve gone over Green’s basketball value plenty, I think it’s pretty clear…

You're right, we have gone over Green's basketball value for two years now.... I think we all know the arguments for and against. I happen to believe has value.... you don't.

@Sammy

I agree that if Aldrich works out, Kevin Love is less palatable.

@justin
The basketball argument against Kevin Love:

I love Kevin Love, but now that we have Aldrich, I'm not sure I do a straight Harden for Love swap. Aldrich duplicates a lot of Love's skillset and I don't think the two would make the best pairing. Before we got Aldrich, we didn't have any bigs that could be a beast on the glass, throw perfect outlet passes, set solid screens, and move the ball from the post; now we do. Obviously, Love is a better rebounder, better passer, and better scorer, and that's great. But are you really maximizing their abilities when you put the two on the floor at the same time? Then there's the defense. Love needs to play with a big body at center that can hide him defensively, of which there are only a few. On the other hand, to maximize Aldrich's defensive potential, he should really be playing alongside a fantastic weakside help defender (like Ibaka).

I guess this is all just a long winded way of saying I'm not sure I want to put all my Thunder eggs in the two-gravity-bound-white-guys basket.

@ThunderHorn

Umm.. Love showed considerable improvement from year one to year two. How are you determining that he has reached his ceiling? Love is a significantly better passer and rebounder than Nick Collison. It's not even close. You're making silly comparison, and it's telling how some are very willing to think that our prospects have high ceilings they have not touched while others (such as Love) have already reached theirs. Despite the fact that Love already made a big jump from year one to year two!

Love is not a 'marginal upgrade' at PF over Jeff Green. It's a tremendous upgrade. Love is a superior offensive player - better passer, far better rebounder. He even shot the 3 about as effectively as Green did this season.

Corey Brewer is not an upgrade over Harden. Love is the upgrade over Harden. Then you figure out the difference between Brewer and Green. In my opinion, it's smaller than the difference between Love and Harden. And I like Harden a lot.

@ThunderHorn
I assume Brewer would be the SG in that situation, but I would much rather have Harden than Brewer there. Nevertheless, I completely agree with your post.

justin :

ThunderHorn :win 50 games and take the defending/eventual champs to 6 games with the youngest roster in the league(average age of 22-23) and we need to overhaul(yes, trading 2 of your top 6 is overhauling) the roster b/c this team has gone as far as they can even though none of the core players are even at their peak years yet…yep sounds like sound logic to me

If it makes the team better, why not? Why not make the team better?
Is winning 50 games the goal?

WINNING is the goal and neither of those guys makes the team better.

How does that make the team better? Love is a solid player but he's about at his ceiling and will likely be a 14-10 guy here but he doesn't have the ability to be a dynamic player or a game-changer. He's a below the rim player. He'll rebound at a good clip and be a solid defender but not much of an upgrade.

If you want 12-14 points and 10 rebounds along with solid position D why not just start Collison. In the couple of years he played 28-29 minutes he put up just under 10-10 few more minutes and he could give you Love's production w/ 35-38 minutes a game. His per 36 minutes would show he could produce close to that.

Green isn't a PF. We know that but he has value. He can be a strong 6th man. He's also versatile. He can play/guard 3 positions. He played poorly this year but that doesn't change the fact that he can hit the 3, he can finish at the rim. He plays above the rim. He's also hit more than his fair of big shots. He has shown the ability to make plays. Is he worht 8-10 mil/year no, but he's worth 6-8 mil/year as the 6th man.

How exactly does Brewer make the team better? He's not better than Green and he's not close to Harden as a SG. He had 1 good year after 2 years of absolute shit. He's definitely not an upgrade over Harden and would be a downgrade from Green.

Harden has already shown he has the ability to be a dyanmic player. He can hit the 3, he can create for himself and others, and he can get to the rim. He's got to work on finishing but most rookies do. Finding produtive SG is easy finding dynamic SG is not easy and Harden is just that.

We get left with a gaping hole at SG and only a marginal upgrade at PF.

We still have 6 million in salary cap space. If there are quality grizzled veterans available I'd support making short-term deals with that money.

@AC
Couldn't agree more.

And proof that you don't put too much stock into one player's playoff performance (like Jeff Green's for instance, his only one). Austin Croshere had some fine performances in the finals, the next year he inked a 7 year $70 million contract. Needless to say, not wise spending.

@justin

Justin, I would like to remind you of one of your favorite facts - that height doesn't matter nearly as much as standing reach. So while Green is listed at 6 9 he has a standing reach of 8'7" ranking him behind such notable power forward prospects/ rebounders like JR smith, James Harden, Evan Turner, and Tyreke Evans.

The 6'9" cut off for your stat is unfair. and making him player power forward is also kind of unfair.

@f5alcon
The problem isn't minor free agents or minor trades: signing Grant Hill for 1 year and 3 million, or Channing Frye for 2 years, 3.8 million is awesome! The problem is the big deals, the ones franchises optimistically believe will put them over the top: Ben Gordon, 55M, Charlie Villaneuva, 35M, Turkoglu, 53M, Shawn Marion, 39M, Rasheed Wallace, trades for Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson. That's a lot of vast underperformance.

I bet a lot of those teams would love to re-do the 2009 offseason.

justin :@Greg
Could you see Sam Presti paying any of those guys? It was obvious when all of those guys signed their deals that they were overpaid. Like DXL, teams sometimes rush into decision making. You don’t have to rush into free agency or trade, you can find a deal that makes sense.

I never said anything about trades. I don't deny that Presti would make a trade to land an impact player (Tyson Chandler). Of course you can't see Presti paying any of those guys now now, they're all garbage. He simply won't land a bigtime FA here over any summer. OKC isn't the most attractive place to free agents to begin with, and Presti isn't going to take an inefficient route in building the roster. Simple as that.

@Greg
Not to mention.. Gilbert Arenas.

@Greg

Could you see Sam Presti paying any of those guys? It was obvious when all of those guys signed their deals that they were overpaid. Like DXL, teams sometimes rush into decision making. You don't have to rush into free agency or trade, you can find a deal that makes sense.

@f5alcon
I'm talking about the "marquee" free agents, the kind that people want us to make in order to make the next step. I'm not referring to a FA signing of Craig "Rhino" Smith for 6 million dollars. Over the past decade here's 10 free agents who were paid to be BIGTIME players, and weren't:

Rashard Lewis
Kenyon Martin
AK-47
Erick Dampier
Peja
Ben Wallace
Larry Hughes
Jared Jeffries
Jerome James
Eddie Curry

@Greg
much more often? free agents sign in other cities all the time without problems, last year, how many free agents were vastly underperforming? maybe 1 or 2 out of a few dozen that moved.

$7-$8 million is a lot of money for a bench player. That's Anderson Varejao, Lamar Odom territory. Is Jeff Green as good as those guys?

Extending Green to that amount this offseason pretty much says 'Serge Ibaka and James Harden will develop into highly productive starters'. Are we okay with making those assumptions a couple months removed from the end of their rookie seasons? To me, that'd be just as foolhardy as carelessly signing a high priced free agent.

@ Justin

Yowza. I was on the fence, but now I hate him.

justin :
Green is a good player, sure. But not in his current role, and he’s certainly not worth a ton to this team if we can’t start him at SF.

Now I can agree with that. He simply cannot be the starting PF, unless he's next to Dwight Howard, for us to get to the finals. He's worth 7-8 mil/year to come off the bench provide 25-30 quality minutes at 3 different positions.

But he does indeed hold more value to another team who can start him at PF. But if we can get him at a reasonable price, then it's more than worth it to have that versatile of a two-way player who had top 5 skill (which he was drafted for) as well as potential. His lack of development this past season is certainly of concern, but it very well could be a blessing in disguise if he thrives in a 6th man role.

Here's a refresher. 85 players 6'9" or taller (Green's listed height) played 1200 minutes or more last year. Here's now Green ranks...

TRB% 75 of 85 (Darius Songaila, Omri Casspi, Al Harrington, Channing Frye all better than Green)

TS% 60 of 85 (Jonas Jerebko, Joel Anthony, Hedo Turkoglu, Hakim Warrick all better than Green)

AST% 55 of 85 (noted passers Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, Michael Beasley and Al Harrington all better than Green)

There's more too it than that but you can go on and on. Plus his defensive struggles, the team is 10 points better per 100 possessions when he's off the court.

Green is a good player, sure. But not in his current role, and he's certainly not worth a ton to this team if we can't start him at SF.

justin :

Greg :
justin :@Bryan We’ve gone over Green’s basketball value plenty, I think it’s pretty clear…

I don’t think it’s that clear. As you’ve pointed out many times, you believe his basketball value to be somewhere around nothing. Needless to say, others believe in Green’s abilities a bit more than you.

So it’s a belief, huh… church of Jeff Green?

You're right. The only reason I, and others, defend Green is solely because he's on the Thunder and we all have homer-bias. I don't think you hear anyone rushing to defend Thabo, outside of Bob, or Krstic when they are over-scrutinized on here. Green is a good player, once out of every 40 posts you might give that indiciation. But more often than not you're overly critical on him, only referencing the bad.

Greg :

justin :@Bryan We’ve gone over Green’s basketball value plenty, I think it’s pretty clear…

I don’t think it’s that clear. As you’ve pointed out many times, you believe his basketball value to be somewhere around nothing. Needless to say, others believe in Green’s abilities a bit more than you.

So it's a belief, huh... church of Jeff Green? :)

justin :@Bryan
We’ve gone over Green’s basketball value plenty, I think it’s pretty clear…

I don't think it's that clear. As you've pointed out many times, you believe his basketball value to be somewhere around nothing. Needless to say, others believe in Green's abilities a bit more than you.

justin :@DXL
You don’t have to make a bad trade or free agent signing if you don’t want to. There are ‘good’ opportunities out there, teams improve themselves in free agency and trade all the time.

But as we've seen over the years, MUCH more often than not FA simply don't work out as planned, and sometimes it's an utter disaster. That's why when the time is right, if we still are missing a piece down the line, Presti is acquiring as many assets as possible in order to swing a trade for a player that HE wants. He's not going to compete with other GMs and over-bid for players in the summer, during the season he'll just turn young talent and a lotto pick into a scoring vet.

As long as there's 20+ GMs who operate in the same manner they have over the past decade, Presti will continue to make a living off of their mistakes while building a dynasty.

justin :
$8 million a year is too much, IMO. Jeff Green has to earn that by playing better.
I think Charlie Villanueva’s 5/35 deal is a good baseline.

Yep, Odom makes a little over $8M/Y on his new contract.

Not sure how Green deserves similar pay.

@Bryan

Four paragraphs defending Green, nothing about basketball. That's what I mean. :)

We've gone over Green's basketball value plenty, I think it's pretty clear...

@DXL

Signing one free agent or identifying an upgrade via trade isn't the end of the world.

I don't think any of those trades are bad, the only bad thing Ferry did was sign Larry Hughes. The Wallace trade was a Hughes dump, then the Shaq trade was a Wallace dump. The Jamison trade was a no brainer, they didn't give up anything except cash and had no cap space to use even if they didn't do the trade - so why not? If they keep LeBron they aren't going to have cap space... so they had to swing for the fences there.

You don't have to make a bad trade or free agent signing if you don't want to. There are 'good' opportunities out there, teams improve themselves in free agency and trade all the time.

@justin
Also, I have to object to your characterization of the pro-Green arguments. I don't think it has anything to do with an emotional attachment to Green, it has everything to do with maintaining continuity on a young squad that has great chemistry.

And, no, I don't think Love/Brewer is better than Green/Harden. You can make the case that Love and Brewer are better individual players, but I would argue that they are simply different. Plus, Harden is comming back for a second year.

The Thunder have Westbrook comming back for a third, Harden, Maynor and Ibaka for a second and Aldrich just getting started. Why tinker until we know more about them before the mid-season trade deadline.

It just makes no sense to me. And don't get me started on Green's basketball value... you can look at +/- all you want, but we all know (a la Kevin Durant) that it does not always mean anything.

Danny Ferry's tenure at Cleveland is an example of exactly what I don't want to happen to OKC. Impatience leads to bad free agency signings (Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall), bad trades for overhyped veterans with horrendous contracts (Ben Wallace, Shaq, Jamison), and not valuing draft picks (Christian Eyenga, and multiple years without draft picks, not purchasing available picks).

If Lebron doesn't resign Ferry will have managed to destroy the franchise in 5 quick years.

justin :$8 million a year is too much, IMO. Jeff Green has to earn that by playing better.
I think Charlie Villanueva’s 5/35 deal is a good baseline.

I actually agree with Justin on this one. Then again, I'd resign the entire team for peanuts if possible.

justin :Jeff Green should have less value to the Thunder than to other teams. He’s a sixth man here, ideally. On other teams he might be a starter. Do you pay Jeff Green starter’s salary to be on the bench or play out of position?

This is the only argument against Green that makes sense to me. However, I don't care if he starts or comes off the bench, he is still worth playing 30+ minutes a game between the 3 and 4.

Hopefully, Green will quite all his doubters this year and make this unending discussion moot.

Jeff Green should have less value to the Thunder than to other teams. He's a sixth man here, ideally. On other teams he might be a starter. Do you pay Jeff Green starter's salary to be on the bench or play out of position?

ThunderHorn :win 50 games and take the defending/eventual champs to 6 games with the youngest roster in the league(average age of 22-23) and we need to overhaul(yes, trading 2 of your top 6 is overhauling) the roster b/c this team has gone as far as they can even though none of the core players are even at their peak years yet…yep sounds like sound logic to me

If it makes the team better, why not? Why not make the team better?

Is winning 50 games the goal?

justin :$8 million a year is too much, IMO. Jeff Green has to earn that by playing better.
I think Charlie Villanueva’s 5/35 deal is a good baseline.

That sounds about right, but I won't complain about 1 mil. 4/32 doesn't sound bad either. I just can't see Presti offering more than 8. I wonder how soon we'll be hearing feedback from both parties involved in the extension.

In the context of a Kevin Love trade that started all of this, he's as young as any of our guys. He'd still be a 'young asset'. Don't get the resistance. Nobody's really pointed out any basketball reasons why that would be a bad trade (Harden / Green for Love / Brewer). I can think of a few basketball reasons not to do it, but most of the outcry seems more like emotional attachment than rational decisionmaking...

win 50 games and take the defending/eventual champs to 6 games with the youngest roster in the league(average age of 22-23) and we need to overhaul(yes, trading 2 of your top 6 is overhauling) the roster b/c this team has gone as far as they can even though none of the core players are even at their peak years yet...yep sounds like sound logic to me

$8 million a year is too much, IMO. Jeff Green has to earn that by playing better.

I think Charlie Villanueva's 5/35 deal is a good baseline.

B-RY :JG is worth every bit of $8 mil

Oh, stop, seriously, you guys are embarassing me!

Greg :

Mark! :@GregIf Green gets paid $10M/Y, I might not renew my season tickets next season.

I just don’t see Presti doing that. I think Presti would like to give 6, JG wants 10, so he’ll either have the opportunity to walk or except 8 mil/year. I can live with giving JG 8 mil.

I can also live with Presti giving me $8 million a year. :)

@Mark!
It's not safe to presume that if you're willing to trade young assets that they've "crapped out". If you have close to 10 players with trade value on your team, which we could possibly have in the next couple of seasons, then instead of trying to figure out how in the world to play all these guys, you trade a copule (along with 2012 lotto pick) and acquire a vet.

What are you saying we should be doing differently at this point? I don't quite get it.

@Mark!
Every year there are teams that talk about buying a pick but they never do. Picks are available--they must be because Portland picks one or two up every single year--but teams are too short-sighted and cheap to put up the money.

Cleveland always talks about buying a pick but they never do. Must be frustrating for their fan base--and for Lebron. He wouldn't leave Cleveland if their roster had a few more promising young players.

@Greg

Is it safe to presume that if we're actually willing to trade "young assets" that they've effectively crapped out? People flip their lid when someone suggests Green or Harden or Ibaka might be traded for a vet.

And if they've crapped out, how much will we be able to get for them in return? If we try to trade them at the end of their rookie scale, they lose a lot of value b/c they need to be resigned (like Green) and could walk for nothing after the trade.

Just seems like a stretch that's easy to talk about in general terms than specific IMO.

Green's playoff performance could end up saving his career here, as well as the team's future financial structure.

Presti won't sign a marquee free agent his entire tenure here, book it. If he's going to make a "wow" move it will be via trade, which is much more efficient.

If Jeff Green walks from 8 mil, he's not the guy I think he is. Don't know how he (or his agent) could look at the numbers he's put up and expect 9 or 10.