Home > Commentary > P, L and T: Draft Picks As Far As the Eye Can See

P, L and T: Draft Picks As Far As the Eye Can See

In any discussion about what the Thunder will do with their four draft picks in the upcoming draft, the topic always turns to “trading up.” As it stands, Oklahoma City possesses the 21st, 26th, 32nd, and 51st picks. So, out of the sixty players that will be selected on June 24th, 7% will theoretically belong to our local franchise.

A quick glance at the team roster suggests they do not need that many rookies. There are eleven players with guaranteed contracts, and that is if the team cuts Kyle Weaver (unlikely) and Mustafa Shakur (probable) who have non-guaranteed deals. If they keep both first round picks, using neither to draft a foreign player who can be stashed overseas, Sam Presti is looking at fourteen of the fifteen roster spots taken prior to any decisions on the second rounders, or free agency.

For argument’s sake, let’s say they do use all the picks they possess, they will be replacing the only players older than thirty (Etan Thomas and Kevin Ollie) with even more youngsters with no NBA experience. They will join the list of players with more D-League experience than NBA playing time: D.J. White and B.J. Mullens.  Do the Thunder really need to keep stocking the 66ers roster with guys on their payroll?

It doesn’t take a genius like Sam Presti to figure out that the team may be a little too draft pick rich. So what options are there?

1. Keep them

This is the easiest but certainly the least likely outcome.

It doesn’t take a genius like Sam Presti to figure out that the team may be a little too draft pick rich.
The Thunder could draft two more green under the gills players. As has been the strategy all along, the Thunder have been stockpiling young talent with an eye on the future. Presti suggested after the Laker series that this may not have changed just because the team matured into a playoff participant faster than he envisioned.

Of course, keeping the picks doesn’t necessarily mean keeping the picks. One (or both) first rounders could be used on a foreign player who would be “stashed” overseas while the player matures and the Thunder roster situation clears up–much like the front office did with Serge Ibaka.

This option would have some inherent risks. Serge is the exception to the rule. Normally, a player selected late in the first round can theoretically earn more from a team in Europe than they can through the rigid rookie cap the NBA offers. So, unless the player has a dream of playing in the U.S. that trumps their love of money, a player who is actually wanted by an NBA team won’t ever come over. However, if the player never develops as the NBA team hopes and can’t make more than the rookie scale in Euros, the NBA team still has to offer them a contract since they were selected in the first round. So, it’s a double whammy. (For evidence, look at the trouble San Antonio is having in getting Tiago Splitter to cross the Atlantic.)

Even if they go the more traditional route of selecting two American college students, Oklahoma City may not be doing it with the intent of keeping the players. If they need to put together a sign and trade package for, for instance, Chris Bosh, those selected players can either be part of the package or make current players more expendable.

2. Sell the picks

As much as I hate to admit it, this is probably the most likely outcome. First round picks have a market value of $3MM. For a team that really has little use for the picks they possess, it’s a nice way of shucking them out and filling up the coffers at the same time. For teams who need cheap labor to help fill out their roster for cap purposes, are loaded with money, and lack draft picks (I’m looking at you New York), Oklahoma City’s picks would be very appealing.

3. Trade down

Second round picks are extremely low risk. The players are the property of the team that selects them through training camp whether they sign a contract or not. That means the Thunder can select a player, get him on the Summer League team, evaluate him through training camp, and even keep them on a non-guaranteed, very low value contract during the early part of the season before deciding if they want to keep the guy. If they find a diamond in the rough–great. If not–they basically got a practice player during the part of the season when they actually practice.

In a chat on ESPN Tuesday, Chad Ford described the talent pool as lacking in elite players, but very deep in mid-level talent. My translation is that players selected during the late lottery probably won’t be much better than many taken in the first half of the second round. If Oklahoma City facilitated a team moving up into the first round for a second round pick (and money), it might not be a huge downgrade.

They could also attempt to trade a current year pick for a future pick .

4. Trade up

This is probably the ideal solution. While Sports Animal hosts and callers are going to drop the phrase “package the picks to move up” like it’s a formality that some team in the top-3 will jump at the option to get two (TWO!) first rounders in return for their single draft choice, it rarely happens. Even when the objective is just to swap picks to move up a couple of spots, it usually takes quite a bit more sweetener than two choices in the twenties. So, for Presti to get teams selecting in the lottery to even take his calls, he will probably have to be willing to expend proven players, future years picks, and/or take on a bad contract.

Then, the next question is whether there is a player worthy of trading up to get. As I mentioned before, if a team is not drafting in the top-10, there probably won’t be much gain from getting any higher. However, if the Thunder are going to target a certain player–perhaps the big defensive center or dead eye shooter they want is projected to go just before they get on the clock–there may be some teams that would listen to offers.

First, the players who the Thunder might want who are often projected to be off the board when they pick:

  • Greg Monroe (6’11″ PF/C Georgetown)
  • Cole Aldrich (6’10″ C Kansas)
  • Ekpe Udoh (6’10″ PF/C Baylor)
  • Daniel Orton (6’10″ C Kentucky)
  • Hassan Whiteside (6’11″ C/PF Marshall)
  • Donatas Montiejunas (7’1″ PF Lithuania)
  • Kevin Seraphin (6’10″ PF/C France)
  • Solomon Alabi (7’1″ C Florida State)
  • Xavier Henry (6’6″ SG/SF Kansas)
  • James Anderson (6’6″ SG/SF Oklahoma State)
  • Luke Babbitt (6’7″ SF Nevada)
  • Quincy Pondexter (6’7″ SF Washington)
    Assuming that there are no surprises during the draft lottery, I cannot see the teams with the top seven picks (New Jersey, Minnesota, Sacramento, Washington, Philadelphia, Detroit) trading their pick for any reason. That’s actually fine, because with the exception of DeMarcus Cousins whose talent the Thunder could use, but whose attitude might clash with the team chemistry, there really aren’t players in that range worth giving up the farm to get. In the 8-14 range however, Oklahoma City could get a player that addresses a need.Here are the teams that will, depending on the lottery, possess those picks.#8 — Los Angeles Clippers

    Would they trade? Probably not, but maybe

    What would they want? They want to make a run at LeBron James, but will probably end up offering a max contract to Rudy Gay. If they sign a max guy, they will have six guys under contract, so they’ll have a good starting line up along with DeAndre Jordan and whoever they draft. They won’t have any exceptions to use, so they will be stuck with nothing but minimum contract players to fill out the roster. For that reason, they may actually value quantity over quality.

    What could OKC offer? The two first rounders would be the starting point along with at least one of the second rounders. They would probably have to add a low salary player (to preserve the Clips’ cap space) with potential (Eric Maynor, B.J. Mullens or D.J. White). Maynor and the first rounders might get the job done, but considering he probably wouldn’t be offered, a future first rounder, or at least some options to swap picks, would also be part of the equation.

    That would be a lot to give up, but currently, it appears Greg Monroe should be available at this slot. He is probably the Thunder’s best hope of getting a big man who can be a defensive presence and provide offense. Any later than this pick, he’s gone, and OKC is choosing a one demensional player.

    #9 — Utah Jazz

    Would they trade? Extremely unlikely

    What would they want? Butted up against the salary tax again, and still hoping to contend, they won’t want to give up the pick unless it both addresses their payroll problem and makes them immediately better.

    What could OKC offer? I doubt it matters. If anybody in Jazz management answers calls with a 405 area code after the Maynor swindling, they are idiots.

    #10 — Indiana Pacers

    Would they trade? Yes

    What would they want? Indiana wants a point guard, but none would make sense in the late lottery.

    What could OKC offer? Eric Maynor and the #26 pick (which Indiana would use for Willie Warren) for the #10 pick and T.J. Ford ($8.5MM expiring contract) gets it done, then the Thunder can sell the other first rounder. However, such a deal takes the Thunder out of contention for Chris Bosh–assuming Presti is going to make him an offer.

    Indiana might be willing to swap the #10 for the two first rounders and a future first, but if any other teams are in the bidding, that is not going to be enough.

    #11 — New Orleans Hornets

    Would they trade? Probably

    What would they want? With the cap shrinking and so much of their cap space tied up into a few players, the Hornets more than anyone are in need of the cheap labor provided by rookies. Also, they really don’t have much young talent.

    What could OKC offer? They could take Mo Peterson’s $6.6MM contract, and send the #21 & #26 pick and probably make it happen. Without offering to take Peterson, D.J. White and/or Byron Mullens would have to be included.

    #12 — Memphis Grizzlies

    Would they trade? Probably not

    What would they want? The only way they trade away a pick is if it makes it economically more feasible for them to match what the Clippers, Nets, or Knicks overpay to Rudy Gay.

    What could OKC offer? Not sure.

    #13 — Toronto Raptors

    Would they trade? Maybe

    What would they want? It depends on how well they understand their reality. Chris Bosh is gone, but if they think they have a shot at keeping him, they probably aren’t listening to offers and look to draft a true center here to make Bosh happy. If they realize Bosh is outtie 5000, they could look to parlay this pick into helping with the rebuilding process. Draft picks and young players are, as Sam Presti can tell them, the right path.

    What could OKC offer? Both first rounders and a player that helps them fill the void (depth and talent wise) in their front court. Mullens would probably be first (behind the absurd request for Serge that they will make) on their list, but D.J. White might also interest them.

    #14 — Houston Rockets

    Would they trade? Doubtful

    What would they want? Truthfully, they need to get younger, but they also need to start competing immediately because no one knows how much longer Yao can play. So, their GM Daryl Morey will want someone whose PER helps them improve on their (insert obscure stat here).

    What could OKC offer? No idea.

    ________

    Anyway, after that, the Thunder could potentially trade with the Timberwolves (#16), Heat (#18), Celtics (#19), or Spurs (#20) if a player they really like slides. However with the exception of Minnesota, there should be no reason to offer more than the packaged picks. If that isn’t enough, then those teams are being unreasonable. Minnesota, though, is also too pick rich, so OKC would probably have to give them player or a future pick.

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    Hey Royce Young. I wonder, what would it take to acquire Marc Gasol and Chris Bosh this summer? I know it sounds ridiculous but I just want to know what it'd take. Is it possible to Sign and trade for Marc, wait for Chris to become a Free Agent in the summer?

    Trade Up, maybe Maynor in the, Get Hassan Whiteside and Willie Warren late. I think Warrens goign to bounce bacj from a bad season.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft

    Per Chad Ford in today's insider blog:

    Dwayne Collins is really long.
    Miami's Collins gets the award for the most extreme measurements I've ever seen. Collins measured 6-6½ in socks yet sported an incredible 7-4 wingspan. I went back and checked our database of measurements from the NBA pre-draft camp and I believe he has the largest disparity ever (9½ inches) between his height and wingspan.

    Collins isn't the most skilled big man you'll find, but he's a very good athlete and tries to rip down the rim on every possession. He goes at the basket so strong that players were yelling "Watch your head, Dwayne!" when he'd go up for a dunk. They weren't kidding. A couple of times he almost dinged his forehead on the rim.

    That length is in the Larry Sanders range (reportedly). You guys know how big a sucker I am for athleticism and freaks. I'm not advocating that we draft him, but guys like this always catch my interest.

    holdmymartian :So who does everyone want us to stay away from in the draft?

    Devin Ebanks

    Re: Varnado

    He's a great shot blocker. He's Serge without the offensive promise. So, what point is there in getting the poor man's Serge if we already have the real deal.

    If we draft a big man, or sign a big man, I think it has to be someone who brings something different to the table. I like Kevin Seraphin, who is a big body that can block out the heftier guys who gave the Thunder fits, and is still a good shot blocker.

    You can say the same about Daniel Orton, but I worry about his durability. He missed a lot of games for McGuinness and didn't prove he could handle the rigors at Kentucky since he played so little.

    Alabi should get bigger, is the magic height everyone craves, and is already good at blocking shots...my concern about him is that he is not a good rebounder and that is the statistic that translates best from college to the pros. That's scary.

    Joe :Babbitt is who I’d get, and then take a flier on whatever big man falls.

    Babbitt's my favorite of the perimeter players. He's an excellent shooter.

    @Daniel
    varnado is a awesome player and a high character guy..
    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/How-Jarvis-Varnado-became-the-nation-s-best-walk?urn=ncaab,183885

    Who saw this tweet by KD:

    RT @michael_reece: @KDthunderup would u want Lebron in okc?(honestly, nah I like who we have..I'm the leader of that teem)

    hahahaha, KD doesn't want Lebron in OKC

    heatcheck13 :As a Suns fan, I will warn to be careful about selling picks. You might save a couple mil but miss out on Rajon Rondo, Nate Robinson, Rudy Fernandez etc.

    Exactly!!! Didn't you guys read the "Book of Basketball"?

    Daniel :
    Get Larry Sanders at 21 and Solomon Alabi at 26! Imagine our frontline then!
    Also, if you guys haven’t heard of Jarvis Varnado, look him up on YouTube. He’s the NCAA’s all-time leader in blocked shots. The guy swats EVERYTHING. It’s possible he’ll be available at #32.
    With Ibaka, Sanders, Alabi and Vornado, our frontline would be just insane! Sign a shooter in free agency and we are set!

    I like Varnado a LOT. He's very athletic and an amazing shot blocker.

    @H.H.H
    I will go so far as to say that it is impossible to move from the 21st to a top 5. Wishful thinking, but will never happen.

    @Matt
    Was comparing Pondexter to Green, not Babbit.

    @holdmymartian

    Orton.

    If I was the Okc. GM I would try and trade both 2nd round picks and the 21st pick and maybe one of our centers or Green and try to get a top 5 or a top 10 and a starter from someone. Kevin Durant will be the M.V.P within the next 3 years he's going to put Oklahoma on the map we have some of the best fans in the NBA. With all that said I live in Ok. but I'm from Cail. so Go Lakers Kobe gets number 5 and the M.V.P again Peace...

    Get Larry Sanders at 21 and Solomon Alabi at 26! Imagine our frontline then!

    Also, if you guys haven't heard of Jarvis Varnado, look him up on YouTube. He's the NCAA's all-time leader in blocked shots. The guy swats EVERYTHING. It's possible he'll be available at #32.

    With Ibaka, Sanders, Alabi and Vornado, our frontline would be just insane! Sign a shooter in free agency and we are set!

    @Sammy
    I watched every game of Green's college career and have seen a decent amount of Babbit. They are not the same player. Jeff is significantly more athletic and is a significantly better defender. He also consistently faced a much higher level of competitition and excelled, winning a Big East title, named Big East POY and going to the final four.

    @holdmymartian
    willie warren

    @Sammy
    Points for the avatar. Short Round is an excellent choice.

    @Keith
    The definition of replacement level is basically "random d-leaguer," which is about how skilled most of those 2nd rounders that never play are. It makes sense if you think about it. Don't think of "replacement level" as actual players that play in the NBA; think of them as the average level of player that one could hypothetically pick up off the scrap heap at any time.

    @DSMok1
    I guess I'm leery of that definition, even if it is "accepted." Given that many second rounders don't play more than a few games in the NBA, I find it very hard to believe they are as good as replacement players. The fact is, there are more basketball players than there are NBA roster spots. If someone didn't make it in the NBA (0 minutes) they shouldn't be considered equal to a replacement, when any replacement would at least be an NBA player.

    I think I should ignore it however and simply look at the slope of the best fit line. It does say what we expect: trading up only a few spots is unlikely to increase the level of player we get much, and late first rounders/second rounders simply don't amount to much over time.

    DSMok1 :
    Also, there were players below 0, but any player with 0 playing time counted in this as worth 0 since we don’t know exactly how good they were.

    Ahh. I would have assumed them to be below replacement level since they never actively contributed to a basketball team; so a non-entity is considered replacement level? I guess that makes sense.

    So who does everyone want us to stay away from in the draft?

    Also, there were players below 0, but any player with 0 playing time counted in this as worth 0 since we don't know exactly how good they were.

    It's not a question of what does Pondexter (or Paul George or Damian James) does better than Green or Thabo. We're trying to build depth at the wing positions. Are we certain Green will be resigned? Are we certain Thabo's plantar fasciitis doesn't affect him next year? We build up depth, and replicate skills, to deal with an uncertain future.

    I'm growing to like Babbitt, he looks like the best pure shooter in the draft. His 3-point and free-throw percentages are spectacular. He has some height/length and might be able to hide on defense against some of the more immobile power forwards.

    Sammy :@DSMok1

    I would think the median late-second rounder would be below replacement level since most of those guys never play. Even a replacement level player helps his team win 10 games…

    No, ten wins is the accepted "replacement level" team in basketball statistical research. Basically, that's what you could cobble together if you just picked up the spare parts that no one else wanted to play; the definition is that you can pick up such a player for minimal cost.

    @Joe
    Watch some of Green's college tape. They're the same player.

    I wouldn't mind Babbitt at all at 21 if we're sure Alabi or Sanders would fall to 26

    @Redstone formerly atr Q.Pon is a great midrange shooter and scorer and good around the basket. Not what I'd call limited on the perimeter. He's just not that swell from three, but good a few steps in.

    Babbitt is who I'd get, and then take a flier on whatever big man falls.

    Yeah, but poindexter is 6'7". With limited perimeter skills in my opinion.

    @DSMok1
    I would think the median late-second rounder would be below replacement level since most of those guys never play. Even a replacement level player helps his team win 10 games...

    The average is above 0 because every ~ 10 years even the 60th pick turns into a servicable player--the rest of the time they're basically "replacement level" players. So the average is above 0.

    That said, perhaps I should also chart the "median" player at each pick. The median 60th pick would yield a 0-value player. The median #1 overall is worth quite a lot.

    Keith :@DSMok1

    Just reading the chart, I’m a little confused. It says WS above replacement, but what is replacement? 0 would correspond to a pick that is exactly even with a replacement player, but every pick in your chart is above 0. That seems impossible.

    The full article is here: http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewtopic.php?t=2577

    Replacement level is equal to a team with 10 wins.

    @heatcheck13
    I agree, I'm not a fan unless it's part of a larger deal that clearly makes your team better.

    As a Suns fan, I will warn to be careful about selling picks. You might save a couple mil but miss out on Rajon Rondo, Nate Robinson, Rudy Fernandez etc.

    @redstone
    Pondexter is a forward, not a guard. The real question is, what does Pondexter do that Jeff Green doesn't? Both are old, big SFs who have a decent skill set and play with good energy and intelligence but who don't do anything particularly well and who aren't particularly great shooters. I don't personally want another Jeff Green on this team.

    @redstone
    Lewis was leaving on his own, the sign and trade was just to get something instead of nothing. He doesn't look bad next to Dwight, but he's been nowhere near worth that max contract. Ray Allen was essentially traded for Green and cap space. Considering he hasn't been much more than a role player the last few years, the cap space was great.

    Both guys would have hit more threes for us, but both would have torpedoed our ability to get better this offseason or make one-sided trades taking on extra money. Lewis especially could not have co-existed with Durant any better than Green, and probably worse given the defensive mindset and shot allocation.

    DSMOk1's chart suggests to me that on average picks from about 15-30 perform pretty similarly on average and there is not much difference from 30-60 either. If you move up within these ranges you better be pretty sure or not worried about cost.

    I like Bradley or Crawford, Babbitt, and Alabi if we don't do anything.

    WHITESIDE!!! WHITESIDE!!!

    Trade up, maybe the 21st and the 51st and mayve Etan Thomas for Whiteside? I think the guys legit. We all know about his blocks, but his offense is developing. hes got range. Will put on more weight. Ibaka, Whiteside and Durant in teh front is a horror show for opposing offense desiring to get in the paint

    What does everyone think of Elliot Williams?

    What does Poindexter do that Thabo and Weaver don't? I don't think I have every seen him make a college three pointer in a game. I thought I heard one time from the other room that he made one, but thought 'That can't be right.'

    Ha ha, just don't see how he is the answer for Thabo's supposed shortcomings of not hitting the three. Or the team's issue of not hitting many three's.

    Which brings me to my next point. Didn't this team get rid of Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis, two pretty good three point shooters, because they didn't want to be a 'soft, jump-shooting team'?

    @Bender
    i voted, 1gb fiber would be so nice

    @Keith
    yeah the obvious teams wont do it, but there are enough teams in the middle that might be bad might not that might be worth the risk, at least with one of the picks, maybe not both.

    @DSMok1
    Just reading the chart, I'm a little confused. It says WS above replacement, but what is replacement? 0 would correspond to a pick that is exactly even with a replacement player, but every pick in your chart is above 0. That seems impossible.

    @DSMok1
    Wow, thanks for that. Looking at the graph, it's apparent to me now why it's important to use a regression curve instead of just taking the historical data at each draft pick.

    @f5alcon
    And in that case, I totally agree with you. I just have a feeling teams most obviously on the downswing are going to be very reluctant to trade future picks, especially unprotected. The only way it works is if we know, or hedge our bet, on something they won't expect. Most analysts think Lebron is staying in Cleveland. Let's say we trade them a pick now for a pick in 2012. Probably a lower pick if Lebron stays, but much higher if he doesn't.

    The question is finding the right team, with the right situation, and negotiating the right level of protection. I could see us trading a pick this year for a Memphis future pick. They might think they can be even better, a playoff team, next year. I think they are maxed out and that injuries will kill them one year (they're bench was completely atrocious). Another team like that could be Houston. They already have a couple NY picks, so they could undervalue their own. Yao may never be healthy again, and the NY picks don't kick in for at least another year. Good coaching or no, they could be giving us a lottery pick next year.

    Vote for OKC at http://www.googlefiber.com/fiber-optics

    Oh well... I guess you can't imbed images here.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/118396169256157940063/APBRTeamEfficiencies?authkey=Gv1sRgCLWFi9vT0NC1Kw#5470865271926932690

    @Keith
    yeah my assumption is based around the risk of them being high picks, would take some luck, but boston in 3 years say will be bad probably and it could end up a top 5 pick for us, that player will be better then who we draft at 26 probably.

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