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Hollinger’s draft big board

John Hollinger today revealed his spreadsheet driven big board, where he rated the top 68 players in the draft. It’s an Insider article, but it’s just fantastically interesing.

Additionally, this is but one tool among many. I’m sure one could greatly improve on the Rater’s performance by using it as a starting point and adding other known variables to the mix. This system rates “pro potential,” which sometimes differs substantially from “pro performance.” As I mentioned a year ago, the fact that Michael Sweetney and Shawne Williams both rated highly coming out of school isn’t necessarily a mistake — they failed in the NBA not from a lack of talent, but for other reasons. Part of good scouting is knowing which players are committed to this enterprise for the long haul, and we can’t tell that from their college stats.

The Draft Rater has one other weak spot: It thrives on information and struggles when it lacks enough. As a result, players who leave school after just one season give it problems. Not only are they the youngest players, and thus the ones we’re projecting farthest into the future, but what makes it even worse is that we have only one season of data to evaluate. That’s the reason that one-and-done players have historically had the greatest error margin, which introduces an added level of uncertainty this season because three of the top five prospects are leaving school after one year.

One other note before we start: The Draft Rater produces a projection of a player’s “peak” PER in Years 4-5, something that may not be apparent from looking at the rather underwhelming numbers next to each name. That’s mostly a problem of the scarcity of NBA stars — since the vast majority of players drafted will settle into the low teens in PER as NBA players, regardless of how good their college stats are, that’s where the projections land for nearly all of them. In other words, there are very few sure things, even at the top of the draft.

The good news is that when it does spit out a “19.01″ as it did for Kevin Durant in 2007, it’s clear you have a sure thing. There’s no Durant in this year’s crop, but there is one prospect who rates as an A-list talent, a freshman from the University of Kentucky named…

DeMarcus Cousins.

It’s not perfect and as 2008 showed, Hollinger’s system can miss some players (he excluded both Russell Westbrook and Brook Lopez from his top 10 that year). But like in 2007, he had Kevin Durant with an all-time high rating of 19.01, ahead of Greg Oden, who was third. So who does he like this year? And more importantly, the players Oklahoma City is in play for – how do they look?

Solomon Alabi, a player multiple mock drafts have OKC taking at 21, ranks dead last of the 68 with a 9.52 projected PER. Daniel Orton is 14, with a 12.15. Gordon Hayward is tied at 16 with an 11.87. Larry Sanders was 30 with an 11.07. And Elliot Williams didn’t make the list. Obviously the Thunder’s list isn’t exclusive to those five players, but I’m just highlighting the current most talked about.

And because some around these parts may find it interesting: James Anderson was 15 with an 11.98, Tiny Gallon 28 with an 11.13 and Willie Warren 40 with a 10.71. Ekpe Udoh who is viewed as an “upside” player, ranked 50th with 10.03.

Like Hollinger said, it’s not the end-all-be-all list. The Draft Rater has missed on some very good players. But like he said, there’s something to the fact a guy like Alabi is rated that low. We still have a good amount of time before the draft and with Combine results and measurements rolling in, we’ll start to get a better sense of it all.

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I don't see how Turner fits on the team. If we had the no. 2 pick I'd hope we picked Cousins or Favors. I honestly wouldn't like to have that high of a pick, and have to give up what it would take. I'd rather trade into the 6-10 range for Monroe, or 10-16 for Orton.

@justin

I have a feeling that the 76ers will want something more than just Brand. Kinda like I discussed a few days ago w/ Minny. Honestly, I think that rumor was floated out there FOR Minny, not necessarily us.

For the Thunder to get the 2nd pick, we'd likely have to give up a player, Green I suppose. I dunno.

And who do we target? Turner is great, but I dunno how much use our team has for a B.Roy that can't shoot. I suppose you'd go after Favors.

Acquiring Brand doesn't put us in serious tax trouble... somewhere just north of $60M in his last year w/ just our current roster + Westbrook/Durant extensions. It just kills our flexibility until Brand is gone.

So, is Favors or Turner worth losing all of our flexibility?

I dunno how bad Brand would be for our locker room. I haven't really got the impression that he's quit trying. It seems more like he simply doesn't have it anymore. He might not be bad in that regard, but I don't have much to go on.

Skill wise, if he can be a decent off the bench option (basically replacing Collison's spot, though obviously doing different things), it *might* be worth it presuming Turner/Favors is a great fit for our team and can be the #3 guy in our core.

If he's not... we just screwed ourselves.

Quite a gamble on a rookie.

But the scenario isn't as outlandish as acquiring Bosh was IMO.

@Kev

What are we going to do with the cap space in the next three years? Might be worth it to get the second pick.

@Joel
what Brand can do for thunder?Nothing

Joel :philly i s shopping the no.2 pick if u take brand. thunder should take a look at that.

Brand the cap killer?

No way . . .

philly i s shopping the no.2 pick if u take brand. thunder should take a look at that.

Hollinger's rating and his measurements give me some added interest in Vasquez (depending on what they plan to do with Weaver). The reverse could be sort of said for Udoh, though I wouldn't throw him out of consideration.

I've mentioned Hobson briefly before. Will do so again.

So much for Bosh's "I want to be a #1 option" talk from earlier in the season.

Looks like he wised up.

@ymi17
Collison is a great back-up 4, but we already have a better one in Ibaka (with DJ waiting in the wings). Not so great as a back up 5- There is a reason Kristic was starting at center after all- and we would still have him, at lest for next year. Not anxious in the least to deal Collison for what its worth, but we can't realistically expect T-Wolves top just give Jefferson away.

I'd be happy with either Alabi or Sanders at #21..

@Steve H

Those are great deals if you're playing a video game. We're not. Why are we so anxious to deal Collison? Once we trade him away we'll search for someone just like him. And the guy most like him on the team currently? Probably Jeff Green.

@Steve H
Well that part obviously wasn't funny. But the rest of the article is pretty fascinating. Simmons mentioned multiple times he expects the Nets to go all out for Carmelo next off-season, seems like someone around here mentioned that possibility.

Greg :Really interesting, and hilarious, Bill Simmons article about Mikhail Prokhorov. Apparently he’s already taken an interest in Presti:
He’ll have been learning the NBA business for a solid year, enabling him to come to conclusions like, “I like the guy who runs that Oklahoma City team, maybe I will offer their owner $20 million for the chance to hire him away.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=si...

Not funny. Not even a little bit.

Really interesting, and hilarious, Bill Simmons article about Mikhail Prokhorov. Apparently he's already taken an interest in Presti:

He'll have been learning the NBA business for a solid year, enabling him to come to conclusions like, "I like the guy who runs that Oklahoma City team, maybe I will offer their owner $20 million for the chance to hire him away."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=si...

@Greg
Really surprised OKC wasn't on the list. Of course, the fact that Toronto is on the list makes me wonder. Why give management a list of 5 teams when one of them is Toronto? Is Toronto somehow going to choose to trade him on purpose if he's willing to resign with them? I feel like that list is actually missing one, and that the names on the list were just assumed.

My latest off-season acquisition fantasy. T-Wolves take either Cousins of Favors (likely), creating a log-jam of front court players. We send them J. Green (they badly need a starting 3), Collison (one of the best back-up 4s in the league, with a reasonably priced expiring contract), and if necessary our 1st round pick in 2012, for Al Jefferson. We send BJ Mullens and our two first round picks to Orlando for Gortat (they have 8 players under contract for 60+ mill BEFORE re-signing Reddick and Barnes, which apparently they want to do. This clears some luxury tax salary and allows them to fill out a 12 man roster from an unusually deep draft- as opposed to going WAY DEEP into the tax penalty with league minimum veterans just to maintain a roster that gets swept in the conference finals). THEN we sign either T. Outlaw or R. Butler (both free agents that should be reasonably priced)to fill in behind KD. Re-sign Olie as our 3rd string PG, and we are done. We get a quality back to the basket post-player, dramatically improve our defensive rebounding, improve our interior D, and keep our salary low enough to pretty comfortably re-sign our existing roster. Serge, Jefferson and Gortat consume the bulk of the minutes at the 4 and 5 spots- Kristic can fill in for 10 min or so when needed, and we still have DJ and whatever big man we stash in the D league with Minnisota's pick (Jordan? Pittman? That kid from French Ghiana?)to play in case of injury. That line-up would have the rest of the Western Conference peeing it's collective pants for years to come.

@DSMok1
Cole Aldrich was 6'9" without shoes, 6'11.25" with. Talk about weird measurements.

Did anybody notice how long the players are in this draft? Standing reach is the key number--and 4 players were up at 9'-5", which is astoundingly long. That is what Shaq and Thabeet measured.

And it is also what Cousins, Whiteside, Alabi, and Jerome Jordan measured.

Cousins is massive.

BTW, Pittman isn't really that tall--his shoes were 2 inches tall. Which is a bit excessive.

For God's sake, please don't go to the Lakers.

Bosh gave out a wish list, and we aren't on it :(

Chris Bosh's agent has told the Toronto Raptors that he's narrowed his list of preferred teams to five, two sources told ESPN.com's Chad Ford at the NBA draft camp.

The list of five teams -- Toronto plus the Chicago Bulls, Los Angeles Lakers, Miami Heat and New York Knicks, sources said -- were given to Toronto management in case the Raptors want to construct a sign-and-trade deal (assuming he doesn't re-sign with Toronto).

Maybe we'll end up keeping both 1st round picks and drafting 2 bigs liek Alabi and Sanders, just hoping that one of them pans out.

@Greg
Agreed. My jaw about hit the keyboard when I saw the 6'11 1/2 in shoes. Maybe it was his build that threw us off in terms of height.

Also, if Larry Sanders could gain some weight, he could absolutely play center in the NBA with a height of 6'10 1/2 and an astounding 9'4 standing reach, especially given his penchant for rebounding and shot blocking.

But it's interesting, because just watching him he didn't seem be extraordinarly long or anything, and didn't think he was that close to 7' either.

@J.G.
Ha I was being sarcastic. It had to have been +30% a few years ago, he used to be WAY bigger. Cousins is has 16% though, that's mainly where the sarcasm was stemmed.

@Greg
Or were you being serious? Where's the sarcasm key on this keyboard when you need it?

Greg :@J.G. And an outstanding 20% body fat.

For him, 20% is outstanding. Trust me. :)

@J.G.
And an outstanding 20% body fat.

Dexter Pittman is the big winner of the measurements: came in at a shocking 6'11 1/2 in shoes with a 9'3 standing reach.

The rating system also has Brian Zoubek ahead of Ed Davis, Ekpe Udoh, and Hassan Whitside..so its not really a be all end all of talent evaluation.

One thing to consider with Alabi is that Florida State was pretty awful offensively last year. He was their leading scorer and most D's schemed to take him away. FSU was ranked 186th in scoring last year. They were terrible. He also was one of their best FT shooters at close to 80%.

One thing with him and Mullens is there is no concern about Alabi's attitude, work ethic, or toughness.

I think one thing you definitely take away from is that he's a project and you shouldn't expect a ton from him and he likely is going to need to be brought along slowly, like Ibaka.

@justin, @Royce Young

Right, sure. But BJ Mullens had a better score last year. BJ was 28th with a 10.81. Alabi is 68th with a 9.52.

The only thing that gives me exception is Mullens is like Orton - a one and done who didn't play much. That skews the data.

But that's still not great news on a guy I really liked.

@justin
Exactly. As Hollinger noted, it's just one part of the whole notebook.

I think there's value for sure. When a guy stands out like Durant in 2007 or is surprisingly low, you've got to stop and say, "Hey, what's the deal here?"

You don't ignore it, but it's just one part of the evaluation. I like to look more at HOW someone plays in college rather than their production like Hollinger's PER.

To be honest, it has me disappointed in Alabi. I really liked him, but to rank so low is something that can't be ignored.

Also, I wonder how Orton's PER is valued based on so few minutes? I know Hollinger addresses the one and done and how it really hurts his analysis. But what about a one and done who didn't play much like Orton? Seems there should be an asterisk by his name.

@justin
Yeah me either. With stats, it's hard to predict a player's potential. As illustrated with Westbrook.

@Greg
Oden was a 14.88 and ranked third.

I don't put much stock into this rating system. Especially for guys who are more 'toolsy', it doesn't mean much.

Wonder what Oden's PER was when Durant scored a 19.1, and if Hollinger believed at the time that Durant should be 1 and Oden 2.

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