Daily Thunder.com

Beautiful! Great site!Thanks for this Adam, and for the links!

@Paul
what i am trying to say is some of their picks were lucky that they fell that far to them and that they are not as amazing at drafting they just draft a lot of late picks and get lucky.
also the lakers have drafted just as well if not better in the late 1st/ 2nd rd. marc gasol, jordan farmar, von wafer, ronny turiaf, luke walton,devean george, kareem rush, Sasha Vujacic, all are or were rotation players. thats 8/16 picks from 20th or lower that panned out vs 9/22 for the spurs.

Presti likes to strike deals on draft day and well before the trade deadline rather than free agents and last second deadline deals. So far so good, kinda pisses me off that the rockets get jordan hill for T-Mac? New York knicks are stupid, they will never make it back unless they get lebron.

@justin
I'm just happy it's his shooting, which is generally the easiest thing for rookies to improve upon.

As for what else Presti could have done... It's difficult to imagine a team selling us a lottery pick cause those are gold to teams shedding salary. Our best chance at buying a high pick was probably from the NYK pick from Utah, actually. I think you can comfortably forget about centers. Which leaves backup PG as our only other real position of need. Who would you have over Maynor? I don't think you could have pried any of the other good rookie PGs. I actually think Luke Ridnour would be pretty interesting as a backup, but that's never happening.

Yeah I was just throwing names out there. Cap space would have been a valuable commodity at this deadline looking at the type of deals that were made, Sam Presti might have been able to make a killing. This is one example of him maybe being a little short sighted with his decision making?

I like Maynor's character, but he's shooting worse than Russell. He should come back better next year, and his defense has been improving at least.

Not to discount the premise of the question. My honest answer is I don't know. Eric Maynor has been slightly disappointing, but I'll be interested to see what he can do after a full year in the league and a summer to (hopefully) work on his shot.

@justin
Yes, I feel the same. But then, we have been 18-7 after we get Maynor. If we get Maynor close to deadline, we might have been worse than 18-7. I can live with that.

@justin
No way we get Landry. Landry cost the Kings Kevin Martin. Jordan Hill, probably, but we'd have to probably take on Jared Jeffries salary also. I don't think I do that deal. I'd rather have Maynor than Augustin.

@justin
I think that's really all part and parcel. I'm lumping all of talent evaluation, coaching hires, drafting, scouting, cap management, smart negotiating, et al. under "excellent management."

Looking at what has transpired at the deadline, does anyone feel we could have gotten a better player than Eric Maynor for our cap space? With all the jockeying for 2010 position, I would think we could have gotten a player with more impact. Could we have facilitated one of these many three way trades and gotten a prospect out of it? Landry? Jordan Hill? D.J. Augustin?

It's also why we have to get the core right before we start paying them. Once the extensions start coming in, if a player isn't working out or doesn't fit OKC can't afford to trade for pennies on the dollar.

Sammy :@f5alcon

Yes, they were lucky to get Duncan. And, yes, striking it big in the lottery is pretty key to creating a championship team. But to create a lasting championship contender takes extraordinary management, especially when in a market where you can’t outspend everyone else.

Exactly, and this is what we are hoping to become is a lasting contender, who hopefully is drafting out of the late 1st round for the next few decades and trying to help our core of Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Green, Maynor and Ibaka.

@I am the DON

Bruce Bowen had a decent year in Miami before San Antonio but was a huge liability in the playoffs that year and they got swept with home court advantage. San Antonio took him on, hid him well on offense, he learned that corner three and transformed from Thabo Sefolosha into Thabo Sefolosha + three pointer.

George Hill is a decent backup but I dunno if he'd have been as successful on another team. He's really built for the Spurs since he's not a great passer but can break down a defense and shoot a bit kind of like Parker.

But again, success is when preparation meets opportunity.

@f5alcon
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The Spurs have done an excellent job of replenishing a championship contending roster for over a decade through what meager picks they have had in the draft, picks that other teams didn't correctly value because they don't scout as much or as well or whatever. Blair fell to the Spurs because 29 other teams already passed on him, some more than once. The Spurs were the only organization to correctly evaluate the risk/reward of drafting Blair.

Yes, they were lucky to get Duncan. And, yes, striking it big in the lottery is pretty key to creating a championship team. But to create a lasting championship contender takes extraordinary management, especially when in a market where you can't outspend everyone else.

I'm also not saying that we'll necessarily find those players that could win us a championship, I'm more saying it can be done if done correctly. We have specific needs, and finding those people that fill them while maybe netting a player with less potential could help us win long term, however, it could cause us to pass on some players with more potential, much the way you brought up some 2nd round and late first round people who have been available. But if we were able to find people to plug in while keeping the success of this year and the flexibility of this roster, I don't think anybody would complain if we have a few missed picks, or a few David Lee's that pass through our fingers for other players.

@f5alcon
Those people you listed as better players could have just as easily been drafted in the top 10 in hindsight. SO they still shouldn't have been available to the Spurs anyway. So given that fact, the idea that they've been able to consistently use the draft to find players and have stayed in the playoffs so as to not be getting top 10 picks to draft, then I'd say they have the championship formula. The Thunder are entering a similar place, where they've built a core and now need to find the pieces to bring them championships. Maybe they draft a Parker or Manu type that bring them in immediately, or maybe they draft a player that can be traded for something like a Scola. Or they go the foreign route and leave them to mature, regardless it is important to understand the draft is what you make of it. There will always be players expected to perform that don't, people that got passed that star, but in general the system and organization have as big effects on this as anything else. Also the draft rights for foreign players don't cost as much, another thing that a finance conscious team is aware of, plus they basically get free development in Europe or wherever unlike bench players who don't do anything.

justin :
The Spurs get a lot out of their picks because of their system and Gregg Popovich. I don’t think George Hill would be that great if he didn’t go to the Spurs. Bruce Bowen was a scrub before he got there.. certain players do well for them who probably wouldn’t work as well elsewhere. They do draft well for their particular system though. It’s not luck, it’s knowing your team and the kind of players you need to make it work. They take aging veterans, plug them in, and suddenly they’re servicable again..

Bruce Bowen was one of if not the best defenders in the NBA by the time he was with Miami

George Hill is one of the best backup PG's in the league no matter what team he is on

@Paul
yeah ill agree they did well for drafting that late, and some of it is good scouting, but to say we can do just as well and it will get us a championship is stretching.

I don't think it's arguable that the Spurs have made excellent personnel decisions for the past decade up until very recently. I can't really remember them acquiring a player that didn't fit their style or what they wanted to do except Richard Jefferson and that's more a product of their core aging and R.C. Buford trying to get some more wins out of them before Tim Duncan is totally useless. Their ability to continually acquire young and veteran talent to supplement Tim Duncan is absurd.

For comparison, check out the Lakers. They have to spend millions in luxury tax to do the same thing the Spurs were doing with a $60 million bill, and their bench still stinks.

justin :
McGrady is done.. they didn’t even want him, they wanted to get rid of Jared Jeffries.
That article is great.. David Lee will probably get 5/65 and it’s going to bug me that it isn’t us giving it to him. Although, if he maintains that production and can play defense it’s almost fair value. LaMarcus Aldridge got 5/65, is there anyone that things Aldridge is better than Lee?

LOL @ being mad we're not gonna be on the hook for $13 mil a year for lee

Simply LOL

Especially since the new CBA is probably about to make a player like lee be worth $5-6 mil at best

@f5alcon
5/12 isn't bad for where they're drafting? 5 for 12 regardless of where you're drafting isn't bad. How many draft picks can you name from Cle, LAL, Det, Utah, or other teams that have consistently been drafting in the upper 20s? When you're in the playoffs and are still finding a productive player more or less half the time I think that's fairly productive. And it's hindsight bias to say "oh this person or this person could have been picked instead of them." My argument is that the people they DID take have been good players.

How have Kyle Weaver and DJ White benefitted us?

@Paul
blair was projected as a 1st rounder, and he has proven that he should have been, its not luck that they picked him, but it is luck that he fell that far, it would be totally different if memphis grabbed blair instead of young. They draft a lot of foreign players, 12 out of 21 since they got parker, more then 50% are foreign, and the number who are good in the nba, parker, barbosa, scola. udrih and dragic are ok, the others were busts or havnt played yet in the nba. 5/12 isnt bad for where they were drafting but still they missed 7/12 times on foreign players, now that late in the draft it probably is fair risk, but to say it is a championship formula isnt true, even they proved that by getting jefferson this year, the draft works when you are bad but not when you are good.

spurs foreign 1st rd picks:

tiago splitter? he may be good, but landry, glen davis, marc gasol were all drafted after him and have had better nba careers

Ian Mahinmi in 2005? david lee, brandon bass, cj miles, marcin gortat, amir johnson, Andray Blatche, monta ellis all were drafted after him.

udrih came before ariza, vareajo and duhon

Leandro Barbosa was traded to the suns and never played for them, and the pick the recieved didnt become anything useful, but josh howard, mo williams, steve blake all came after him.

tony parker, cant argue that one.

but still 3 out of their 4 1st rd foreign picks had better players come after them.

scola, manu and dragic are the only real steals of the 2nd rd, and manu is the only one playing for them. dragic is ok, and scola is the only one starting.

So 4 picks in the last 10 years have benefited them directly(manu,parker,hill,blair) the rest were traded or busts. udrih was on the 2005 championship team so maybe he counts.

in the past 2 years we have had 3 players from the late draft benefit us ibaka,weaver,white. And glen davis became jeff green.

Of all those players Brandon Bass was probably the best acquisition - good sized contract. Just he never gets to play and doesn't fit that team!

Looking back at last summer's free agent signings, has there ever been a worse summer in retrospect?

Bad acquisitions - Carter, Turk, Chandler, Bass, Gordon, Villenueva, Miller, Jefferson.
So-So - Okafor, Ariza (no better than what he replaces)

I'm hate this, but might you agree that Ron Artest may be the best of those changing teams?

@Boots
OKC has $40 mil committed for next year, with cap holds for two first round draft picks (that might be $2.5 mil or so). So if the cap is $53 mil we'll have a little over $10 mil to play with this summer.

And I don't think all the cap space is going to be used immediately. The NBA's a copy cat league. I wonder if other GM's are inspired by how OKC has aggressively and creatively used its ample cap space to rebuild.

@DL
OKC can't be far off can they?

Not that I am proposing adding a max contract, but we have to be fairly close

Also fascinating: Sacramento, LAC, Chicago, Washington and Minnesota now join NY, NJ and Miami in being able to sign a max free agent this summer.

Is it luck when a team continually hits big with their late first rounders and second round picks (a la San Antonio and Houston)? The Darko pick, Isiah Thomas, Kwame Brown... these aren't bad luck, they're bad team management, bad scouting. I mean, it's bad luck for the team's fans when you have an inept front office, but the front office has no one to blame but themselves. Bad luck is when Oden breaks his knee getting up from his couch. Bad luck when your team moves to a state you've never stepped foot in due to forces totally beyond your control.

The Hollinger tidbit about preserving $1.8 mil in cap space for draft day is fascinating. We'll be able to trade a draft pick for a (cheap) player without having to send a matching salary back?

It's very interesting that we didn't trade Harpring or Etan for a useful player with an expiring contract. It seems we could have gotten Camby or Haywood for not much more than expiring contracts and an early 2nd round pick. Or just expirings if we were to also take on a bad (but not exorbitant) contract like DeShawn Stevenson. A big would have helped a lot in the playoffs.

The Spurs get a lot out of their picks because of their system and Gregg Popovich. I don't think George Hill would be that great if he didn't go to the Spurs. Bruce Bowen was a scrub before he got there.. certain players do well for them who probably wouldn't work as well elsewhere. They do draft well for their particular system though. It's not luck, it's knowing your team and the kind of players you need to make it work. They take aging veterans, plug them in, and suddenly they're servicable again..

the knicks only have 11 signed players, shaun livingston should sign with them, he would do well in the uptemp no defense scheme

At this point, I am becoming resigned to the idea of acquiring our next center through the draft. As has been discussed at length, landing a quality NBA center with a mid to late pick is mighty difficult- but we could always get lucky with a lottery ball (hopefully PHX's), and Presti has proven that he has an outstanding eye for talent. No more bashing of our ownership from me for awhile- unless Portland finishes ahead of us in the play-off seeding, in which case I reserve the right to explain at length the stupidity of not besting their offer for Camby (Thomas and Minnie's 2nd round pick would probably have done the trick).

@f5alcon
Luck happens?? Or good drafting happens? Did they magically get lucky and draft Blair?? Oh wait that probably is lucky?? But the spurs were one of the first people to have success with foreign players (Manu and Parker) and have used the rights to others (Scola and their current hold on Splitter) to get them other pieces. Plus drafting Roger Mason and George Hill hasn't been bad for them especially considering they tend to have late first round picks. So how is a team that is "lucky" still able to consistently stay near the top of the conference when always drafting late in the first??? I'd say they actually know how to draft, yes they lucked into Duncan, but the rest isn't necessarily luck.

@justin
alridge is barely better then jeff green much less david lee

McGrady is done.. they didn't even want him, they wanted to get rid of Jared Jeffries.

That article is great.. David Lee will probably get 5/65 and it's going to bug me that it isn't us giving it to him. Although, if he maintains that production and can play defense it's almost fair value. LaMarcus Aldridge got 5/65, is there anyone that things Aldridge is better than Lee?

@Sammy
yeah but it was still a lucky pick, what if somebody had taken him earlier and he wasnt on the board, then he would have ended up with somebody much worse.

i wonder if mcgrady is actually able to do anything anymore, or we walk all over the knicks now.

@justin

Is that so, Slick Watts?

http://disciplesofclyde.com/?p=867

brilliant.

@f5alcon
Presti was the impetus behind the Parker pick. That was actually his big claim to fame in the Spurs organization. He was in love with him and made a big campaign to Pop and the front office that he should be the pick.

@Sammy

If we lose I'll be pissed.. Knicks fans can be insufferable.

@Paul
the spurs have some of the best luck of all time, robinson got hurt, then they sucked so they drafted duncan, they were a 59 win team the year before robinson got hurt and fell all the way to a 20 win team. Then they won the lottery. i mean the odds of all that are so low, we probably have a better chance of the suns pick landing us john wall.
Then they drafted parker with the 28th pick and manu with the 57th. That would be like ibaka and weaver both becoming superstars. So the spurs had a ton of luck(they could have ended up drafting tinsley or Raúl López who went before parker)

Yeah good luck happens, same as with boston getting all those players, but so does bad luck, darko getting drafted ahead of melo and wade, ishiah thomas' choices. So we cant just hope it all works out, mullens becomes the best center of all time or something, the current lineup doesnt have the scoring ability to win a title

Nenad Krstic could gain value, so could Nick Collison. If we make the playoffs and they are servicable they're expirings the next year. Other teams might be more willing to part with players after the season is over, like Golden State as Paul mentioned. There's another player that could gain value too..

@justin
I'll go ahead and predict a career high for Durant. Before the Dallas game, I wrote a long 'prediction' post saying Durant would get 26 on 9/22 shooting, Westbrook would have a standard 16/6/5 game, and Harden would be huge off the bench. Then I deleted it thinking 'what am I doing, game predictions are so stupid and are nearly always wrong'...

Or, rather, McGrady + 2010-2011 cap space for picks.

@Boots
I meant to add a winky face, as I understand what your actual point was ;)

@justin
Technically, wouldn't our assets get worse with a playoff run? IE the picks are lower?

@justin
Although it is a fallacy to look at this trade as McGrady for Kevin Martin + picks. It's really McGrady for picks and Landry for Martin.