Daily Thunder.com

Keith :
Seems I’m very much late for the after-party, but a lot has been said that we’ve been saying for a long time. This team needs either a stellar PF next to Krstic or a stellar C next to Green. Both are passable most nights on their own, but the team can’t take the next step until one or the other is permanently upgraded. I’d prefer to swap out Krstic as Green is considerably more talented and still has room to grow. Krstic is basically as good as he’ll be.
Also, to address cap questions, here’s how we look in the near future. Assuming Krstic stays, we sign two 20-ish picks, and no FAs, we are on the hook for 43 million next year, which is about 10 million under the cap.
The following year, Durant and Green’s extensions kick in. Now, Durant will likely get a max contract, Green somewhere in the 7-10 million range. Assuming we resign Krstic and Collison for similar contracts, the extensions would increase our payroll by about 10 million (max contract for Durant will start at 13.25).
The year after, Westbrook (and White if we care) will be extended, increasing the payroll by another 5-6 million.
And so on and so on with Harden and the rest.
If you add a max contract into the mix (trade rules would force us to send out enough salary to stay right below the cap), you can add a straight 10 million to each year. That means next year we would sit directly on the cap line. The following year, we would be 9-11 over (depending on how much the cap goes back up). The following year, we would be 13-15 over (likely in luxury tax territory). Further, if Krstic or Collison leave in 2011 (one will almost invariably be included in the trade if we get a max contract player), then we can wipe 6 (Krstic) or 7 (Collison) million off the books in 2011 and beyond. The point is that we can pretty easily afford a max contract player while also paying our guys. Money won’t be a significant issue until the 2013 offseason, by which time the cap will have gone back up and we should be perennial contenders.

thats interesting.

Peter :It kills me watching the combo of Kristic and Green fail time and time again to box out and get defensive rebounds. They are reasons 1A and 1B that the Thunder get killed on the offensive glass. How many times is Green going to just stand under the rim watching the ball come off, praying it just falls into his hands, while his guy goes right around him for the board/put-back? My daughter plays with her barbies with more tenacity than Green uses on the boards. Kristic has always been, and always will be, soft. That’s okay. He doesn’t make much money and is what he is – a spot-up shooter. But we got Green with the #5 pick because of his athleticism and versatility. If he can’t take stiffs like Bogut to the hole, and can’t hit wide-open 3’s, and can’t box out the likes of Ersan Ilyasova (who had 10 boards in only about 20 min… many on the offensive side), then why give him minutes over Ibaka and Collison? Doesn’t make sense…

Spot on!

I like Thabo's line last night - 4 for 6 (nine points) and nine rebounds . . .

It kills me watching the combo of Kristic and Green fail time and time again to box out and get defensive rebounds. They are reasons 1A and 1B that the Thunder get killed on the offensive glass. How many times is Green going to just stand under the rim watching the ball come off, praying it just falls into his hands, while his guy goes right around him for the board/put-back? My daughter plays with her barbies with more tenacity than Green uses on the boards. Kristic has always been, and always will be, soft. That's okay. He doesn't make much money and is what he is - a spot-up shooter. But we got Green with the #5 pick because of his athleticism and versatility. If he can't take stiffs like Bogut to the hole, and can't hit wide-open 3's, and can't box out the likes of Ersan Ilyasova (who had 10 boards in only about 20 min... many on the offensive side), then why give him minutes over Ibaka and Collison? Doesn't make sense...

I think the above two posts point to lack of offensive imagination in the gameplan - why is your #3 pick literally doing NOTZHING for five minutes of gametime???

the correct answer is ZERO

he finally touched it on his eleventh possession (11:05 in the second) -

We've been criticizing Harden, but they have to get some movement going - 90% of those half court possessions saw James sitting in the corner (usually left) doing NOTHING - he might as well have been eating popcorn . . .

Just rewatched the last four minutes of the first quarter (James Harden) had just entered . . .

guess how many times Harden touched the ball in the final eight possessoins? ( I don't mean shot - I mean TOUCHED the ball)

I willecho what Keith said, this is not about last night - we have been talking about trades since before the season started . . .

@Anonymous

I agree, one loss shouldnt be such a big deal, i mean atlanta has lost 3 in a row and they are not running around clamoring for trades. Its not even like we got blown out, we lost in overtime. Yes i agree that either green or krstic needs to be out of the starting lineup, but it doesnt have to happen today, or even this season, we can wait til the offseason and see whats available then, we are not winning a championship this season or probably even next season, so krstic contract will expire by then, and we will see if ibaka or mullens have improved significantly.

If we act too quickly we can make bad decisions and take a step backwards instead of forwards

I'm pegging this on the Serbian. He should have at least gotten 5 boards.

about the closing sequence in regulation:

1) on the last play, KD has to expect the double team - really, has done more than we could expect on this streak, but he has his head down when the double is coming - he has to kick that over to the wing . . .

2) speaking of the wing, why was Thabo in the game? - we called a timeout with twenty seconds left, Harden (or even Maynor) should have been inserted - we were on offense when the timeout was called - that makes NO sense . . .

@Anonymous
Actually, they are doing GREAT compared to what was expected. But now that we know they can compete, we are looking towards to future. We are all happy for every win, and aren't completely devastated by every loss, but we aren't bringing up new points because of this game. Green has been an ok but underwhelming PF since he played there. Krstic has never been much to write home about. The West is a murderer's row of good teams. You can make it to the playoffs being pretty good, but we are hoping for future championships, for which you need to be able to beat those top teams in the West. On their own, Green and Krstic can't make that happen.

@justin
One is likely gone in a trade, should we get a max contract player. So the decision will only be on one, not the both. Still, if don't see either one staying on past 2011, then we shouldn't even be in luxury tax territory until we are forced to extend Harden, Ibaka, and Mullens. But again, most every top team is in the luxury tax. If we aren't contenders by the time Harden's extension kicks in, we'll have bigger issues than money to worry about.

I don't think we will resign both Nick Collison and Nenad Krstic.

Seems I'm very much late for the after-party, but a lot has been said that we've been saying for a long time. This team needs either a stellar PF next to Krstic or a stellar C next to Green. Both are passable most nights on their own, but the team can't take the next step until one or the other is permanently upgraded. I'd prefer to swap out Krstic as Green is considerably more talented and still has room to grow. Krstic is basically as good as he'll be.

Also, to address cap questions, here's how we look in the near future. Assuming Krstic stays, we sign two 20-ish picks, and no FAs, we are on the hook for 43 million next year, which is about 10 million under the cap.

The following year, Durant and Green's extensions kick in. Now, Durant will likely get a max contract, Green somewhere in the 7-10 million range. Assuming we resign Krstic and Collison for similar contracts, the extensions would increase our payroll by about 10 million (max contract for Durant will start at 13.25).

The year after, Westbrook (and White if we care) will be extended, increasing the payroll by another 5-6 million.

And so on and so on with Harden and the rest.

If you add a max contract into the mix (trade rules would force us to send out enough salary to stay right below the cap), you can add a straight 10 million to each year. That means next year we would sit directly on the cap line. The following year, we would be 9-11 over (depending on how much the cap goes back up). The following year, we would be 13-15 over (likely in luxury tax territory). Further, if Krstic or Collison leave in 2011 (one will almost invariably be included in the trade if we get a max contract player), then we can wipe 6 (Krstic) or 7 (Collison) million off the books in 2011 and beyond. The point is that we can pretty easily afford a max contract player while also paying our guys. Money won't be a significant issue until the 2013 offseason, by which time the cap will have gone back up and we should be perennial contenders.

@Anonymous What I know is that Etan's play is sort of a tradeoff. He's not a strong rebounder (about the same rebound rate as Krstic) but he is a physical post player. His offense is pretty raw for a seasoned vet, but he plays with a lot of passion. Where the tradeoff comes is that he can't slide his feet worth a crap. When defending a post player and has to slide left or right to stay with a post who is making a move it's like he has sand in his pants. Very very slow. He can play standup d, but he moves very slowly. So he's a bit of liability on D and O, but he's not horrible, and he gives us some menacing presence in the middle.

Does anyone else think Jeff Green projects a cavalier attitude most of the time? I just do not see him with any fire in his eyes. Don't know if he is really happy in OKC. Am I reading too much into demeanor?

We really didn't learn anything new last night. We need a new starting center. I get ribbed a bit for proposing lots of trade scenarios that land us a new center. This obsession stems from my belief that acquiring this one last piece is both essential to become serious contenders in the coming years, and is the only significant personnel move that needs to be made for years to come. If you include Weaver, we have a nice 5 deep guard rotation- nobody else is needed. If we can keep Green, we are a strong 2 deep at the 3, and 4 deep at the 4 (Green, Collison, Ibaka, White) Even without Green, we have a decent PF rotation for the present plus a rookie with all-star potential in Ibaka- and a quality back-up 3 IS the sort of role player you can expect to acquire with a late 1st round pick. Presti needs to land Bosh, Biedrins, Gortat, Okafor, Camby, Haywood or the like. I'm OK with waiting until this off-season if necessary, but doing it that way would squander some of our big trade assets (Thomas and Harpring's expiring Ks) and put us at the mercy of the free-agent market. Getting us a new big by the deadline would also better equip us for a post-season run this year- which would give our younguns invaluable experience for next year and beyond. So please, please, pretty please Sam P- get us a new starting center, and the sooner the better.

So we lost. We found a Point guard as well as a back up. The 1 and 3 are set. Ibaka at the 4-5 set. Sef at the 2 set. We ate getting closer. We need to pry Bogut from the Bucks- there is no doubt- make it so Presti.

From the write-up:

"I could be wrong about this, and hopefully somebody corrects me, but I don’t remember seeing Ibaka getting much if any time defending Bogut. It was always Krstic who was inneffective, or Colly who was a bit better and definitely tougher but undersized. Bogut is a bull and has very basic yet fundamentally sound and effective post moves. Why not put the jumping jack on him? He cleanly shot over Krstic and Colly time and time again."

I don't have the eye for the game-within-the-game that many of you have, but I thought the same thing here. There was a moment in the 4th quarter or overtime when Collison was heading to the bench, and I really thought Ibaka would be replacing him. Ended up being Krstic, which surprised me. Brian Davis tried to put a good face on it by saying that Krstic was bigger than Collison and might be able to bother Bogut for that reason. I wanted to believe that but it felt a lot like believing I could step off a cliff and not fall. I thought Ibaka was a better option, which leads to the obvious conclusion that I should have been an NBA coach.

Kidding aside, what happened to OKC's defense in overtime? They were doing so well, then things just sort of fell apart. Maybe they were a bit gassed, although you have to give Milwaukee credit for scoring when they had to. And the Thunder did get some impressive stops even in overtime. Just not enough of them. I think it was Michael Redd who hit a couple of video game shots in overtime that just left me shaking my head. As soon as he let them go I thought to myself, not a chance. Turned out I was right. Not a chance to hit anything but the bottom of the blasted net.

Tough loss to a scrappy team, but even so, last year a game like this might have felt like a moral victory, taking an opponent to overtime on their home floor. But that's another sign of the difference from last year. It's nice to be mad about losing instead of satisfied about the team playing hard and coming close. If that makes sense.

Speaking of being mad, I really ought to go to church this morning to make up for the less than stellar language I directed toward the TV last night. Way too many "oh shoots" and "dad-gums."

JG can be a solid contributor. if we had a legit C who could also play some PF (allowing Krstic to come off the bench and give us a little offense for 15-20 minutes), that'd cut into his minutes and allow him to let the offense flow a bit more, instead of forcing up shots all game.

I maintain that Green is not to blame for all our woes. we knew he was a tweener F all along. now, to get 4-5 rebounds per game out of our starting and ONLY true C... not to mention the lack of boxing out and defensive presence inside... we are probably the NBA's most vulnerable team inside right now.

Nobody here wants the history. I don't give a damn about the Sonics. But, that's how records are kept in all pro sports--franchise history. You'll just have to learn to deal with it or become a Portland fan.

As i said before the THUNDER will need a big time power forward and center if they want the ring(Jeff Green and Ibaka might develop ), and please remember that the franchise records began last year, don't compare them to the Sonics because that is BS , the Sonics died two years ago and OKC will need to start it's own records and reputation don't go trying to pretend the team willingly moved there and the history did too. Not. BS you try to use Spencer Haywoods name and his 1972 record to compare to KD. Not. The Sonics are Dead!!!! R.I.P. 2007....OKC You can take the team but you can't take the history sorry.... I thought that was part of the signed deal, no history and banners or anything, what's up, oh yeah and the THUNDER just announced they have been purchased by Rocky Racoon and they are moving to North Dakota next season,how does it feel????

i missed this game, maybe thats why we lost, i hadnt missed a game in a month

Finally had a chance to watch it. What a frustrating loss. But hey, I guess you can't win 'em all.

Russell Westbrook though, holy cow: 17 points, 13 assists, nine boards, zero turnovers. Doin' work.

in the top* half

i really should read my comments before submitting them

justin :@niimits

We are 21st in the league in Defensive Rebound %. That’s where we get killed. We’re also 21st in the league in Turnover %.

Sorry I only checked ESPNs numbers, and we seem to be in the half in every rebounding category there, percentage obviously give a better picture. Thats where a legit center would help!

Interestingly we're also 21st in the league in eFG%. Strange how that works.

@niimits

We are 21st in the league in Defensive Rebound %. That's where we get killed. We're also 21st in the league in Turnover %.

ok so would we be willing to take a risk by trading green, thomas, and krstic for bosh? we might not be able to resign him but we are getting nothing from those 3.. toronto may do it as the trade deadline creeps closer if they feel they have very little chance in resigning him... Also, is it feasible to have 2 max contracts(KD) plus RW and possible Harden earning in the ten mill range down the road?

justin :
Well.. the FT shooting in Utah can be written off as an anomaly. The rebounding thing has been happening off and on for awhile, and is probably more of a functional problem rather than a ‘mistake’.

We are top ten rebounding in the league and honestly a good center and a couple of years of experience away from being a contender. Justin is right, lets just be happy about the improvement of the team as well as Russ :) and hope we can still hit 50 this season if the players start taking losses as personally as Green did tonight!!!!!!!!!!

If we acquired Bosh mid season we'd get his Bird Rights, which means that we'd be able to sign him to an extra year and for more money.

This doesn't mean much in the real world because in the end Chris Bosh will go where he wants to go. We won't really hold any advantage because he could say 'I want to play in Miami' and we'd be forced to do a sign and trade to get something in return. I don't think Bosh is going to be resigning with any team he happens to be traded to just because they hold his Bird Rights..

So the answer to your question is that there is probably little point in trading for Bosh during the year.

justin :Man I’ve been up trying to be a positive guy.. gonna go to bed now. Everyone look at the list of point guards that Russell is outplaying this year so far and be happy about something

It really is impressive!!!

andrew :i got a ?, what advantage would we have in resigning bosh if we acquired him mid-season? how much more could we offer him?

the problem is that we oouldnt resign him until after the season - we'd be taking a risk in getting him midseason . . .

I will leave our local cap experts to answer your question . . .

Man I've been up trying to be a positive guy.. gonna go to bed now. Everyone look at the list of point guards that Russell is outplaying this year so far and be happy about something :)

i got a ?, what advantage would we have in resigning bosh if we acquired him mid-season? how much more could we offer him?

Well.. the FT shooting in Utah can be written off as an anomaly. The rebounding thing has been happening off and on for awhile, and is probably more of a functional problem rather than a 'mistake'.

justin :
We stayed in the game because for most of it our offense wasn’t really that bad, it was actually good by our standards, and our defense wasn’t bad either.
It was like the Utah game, or the Houston game(s), or the Laker games that were close. Little things that piled up (FT shooting, rebounding, turnovers) and made it difficult to win without playing an offensive game that was beyond our current reach. If we get some of those defensive boards we probably win this game handily. We were out shooting them by quite a bit for most of the game and we had a considerable advantage at the line.

You exactly right, thats what I am trynna point out that we are good enough to overcome mistakes like this and keep games close, but not clutch enough to close them out yet. Obviously if we dont make these mistakes we dont have to worry about closing it out like this, but every team makes mistakes!

justin :Krstic does what he’s paid to do.. if he could rebound AND shoot the 20 footer he’d be making $12 million a year. You can’t expect him to be a bruiser because that’s not what he is..

I'm quite sure Presti didn't pay #12 just to shoot 20ft jumpers when we have a plethora of guys who can do that, heck we already had Petro for that last season!

We stayed in the game because for most of it our offense wasn't really that bad, it was actually good by our standards, and our defense wasn't bad either.

It was like the Utah game, or the Houston game(s), or the Laker games that were close. Little things that piled up (FT shooting, rebounding, turnovers) and made it difficult to win without playing an offensive game that was beyond our current reach. If we get some of those defensive boards we probably win this game handily. We were out shooting them by quite a bit for most of the game and we had a considerable advantage at the line.

if we had won*

i am an idiot :D

Krstic does what he's paid to do.. if he could rebound AND shoot the 20 footer he'd be making $12 million a year. You can't expect him to be a bruiser because that's not what he is..

We lost because kristic is our starting center and green our starting pf

justin :
We lost because we couldn’t rebound the ball and they had 20 more shot attempts than us.. pretty simple.

Yeah that too, but we still managed to stay in the game and give ourselves a chance despite all of that, we just blew that last possession. If we had one we would be all talking about how "Good teams" find ways to win even when they get out rebounded and out shot. But since we didn't we wanna blame that stuff!

@niimits
Plus, we got a 7 foot SG mascarading center who couldn't fool stevie wonder or ray charles! He's only had 1 double digit rebounding game all season! Really! I mean really #12!

We lost because we couldn't rebound the ball and they had 20 more shot attempts than us.. pretty simple.

Russell Westbrook currently has an A:TO ratio higher than the following players:

Tony Parker
Gilbert Arenas
Brandon Jennings
Derrick Rose
Devin Harris
Jameer Nelson
Ray Felton
Andre Miller
Aaron Brooks
Brandon Roy
Mo Williams
Rodney Stuckey
Kirk Hinrich
Tyreke Evans
Derek Fisher

Encouraging, huh?

^^^^^
And thats saying a lot for where we are at right now!!

Kev :

justin :See I’m trying to be the positive guy steering the conversation to how awesome Russell has been but you’re all such downers.

LOL
This was really a very good defensive effort – I still dont know how we lost . . . We’ve been ragging on Green and Harden, but they weren’t THAT bad . . .

we lost cuz we don't know what to do with the last possession, we could have beat the lakers twice already if we did!!!!!

justin :See I’m trying to be the positive guy steering the conversation to how awesome Russell has been but you’re all such downers.

LOL

This was really a very good defensive effort - I still dont know how we lost . . . We've been ragging on Green and Harden, but they weren't THAT bad . . .