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Sunday Discussion – All Good Things…

“If pleasures are greatest in anticipation, just remember that this is also true of trouble.” – Elbert Hubbard

Thunder Nuggets Basketball I just didn’t feel like they were going to be able to dodge yet another bullet last night. Call it pessimism or lowering my expectations so as to not be disappointed, but even with the ball in Durant’s hands for a last second shot and the ensuing overtime after the miss, I just never had that gut feeling that the Thunder would pull it out–like I did against the Jazz, Wizards, etc over the course of the winning streak.

But I was frustrated and despondent none the less (though not nearly as bad as I was after being forced to endure the debacle that was the Cotton Bowl).

And that disappointment is the problem with unexpected success and climbing new heights: We raise our expectations and start looking ahead at the calendar to check off future Wins and Losses with a new, adjusted sense of how good this team is and should be moving forward.

But like the game of basketball itself, a team and a season is all about spurts. Every team makes a run, both good and bad. And so the best time to step back and take assessment of the state of all things Thunder is precisely at this moment. The warts are easiest to hide under the salve of winning. After all, winning cures all ails.

But in a loss, and might I add a loss that perfectly highlights the glaring weaknesses of your team, the picture becomes explicitly clear as to what is working, what has improved and what desperately needs more attention. So what did we learn from the Bucks’ game? From the season as a whole thus far? Well, we learned something we’ve already known but just maybe reduced in terms of panic and importance since this Thunder team is performing well beyond the preseason expectations we (or anyone in the NBA, for that matter) could have predicted. But again, all it takes is that one loss to make fans everywhere hit the panic button when that GLARING HOLE in the armor becomes visible again.

But is there justification in pushing the panic button after yet another painful demonstration of what this team is lacking? Well now, that’s the question.

Offensive rebounds. They’re absolutely killing the Thunder.

After last night the Thunder are sitting at sixth worst in allowing Opponents to pull down Offensive Rebounds at 11.9 a game. Why is this so bad? Well, to put it bluntly, when you allow offensive rebounds you give up extra possessions to your opposition. And for the Thunder, who is an especially inefficient offensive team, giving the other team more opportunities at the basket is like successfully walking through a room of mouse traps only to realize that you forgot your keys and have to go back. Sooner or later, it’s going to hurt you.

To further establish the importance of offensive rebounding and extra possessions, let’s take a look at last night’s game again in terms of the four factors of winning. Like Joe pointed out rather poignantly, the Thunder were victorious in three of the four factors but were absolutely annihilated in the factor of offensive rebounds. And when one of the four factors is so clearly DOMINATED by one team (like the Bucks did in Offensive Rebounds), than it almost makes it impossible for the other team to pull out a victory, even by winning the other three factors.

Of course this is true of the other three factors of winning as well. When one team has a dramatic dominance in any of the four factors, be it free throw shooting, FG% or Turnovers (limiting them, of course), then the weight of that dominance outweighs the slight advantages of the other categories…well, categorically.

And that’s the problem, the Thunder can’t afford to be consistently dominated in offensive rebounding if they want to make a run for the playoffs because they really don’t have much room for error. The Lakers and Suns, both worse than the Thunder at giving up offensive rebounds (and no, I have absolutely no answer as to why the Lakers are so bad in this category other than maybe their bench), can get away with it better than the Thunder because they have a greater margin of error when it comes to the four factors.

But the Thunder are improving and giving themselves a wider margin than ever before. Obviously the free throw shooting improvement has helped (though they will have a game here and there where you feel sick to your stomach down the stretch) but even more so, the almost sudden stratospheric improvement of Russell Westbrook’s play at the point position recently and the acquisition of Eric Maynor has been a revelation at the position. I don’t know whether to credit the presence of Eric Maynor or the maturation of Westbrook himself or the coaching staff for Westbrook’s sudden improvement, but FG% aside, RW has been playing like the player we’ve all hoped and believed he could be…and Maynor, wow, he has really shown his value and the value of a legit backup point guard in general.

And that's the problem, the Thunder can't afford to be consistently dominated in offensive rebounding if they want to make a run for the playoffs because they really don't have much room for error.

Coming into this season, the Thunder’s greatest needs were point guard play, perimeter shooting/scoring and post presence. So far, the point guard play has and is improving, the perimeter shooting has struggled but the scoring from the wing positions has been improving (obviously Durant is having a phenomenal, All-Star caliber third season) and the continued contributions of Harden and Thabo at the shooting guard position are rounding this team into a playoff contender.

So that just leaves that little old problem that we’ve all been screaming, debating and going a little crazy over: The Post.

I have no desire to repeat what many, many, surely thousands of comments and posts have said before so I’ll just say this… Ibaka is not ready but wow, what a great discovery his contributions have been. Collison is the glue guy that every team needs OFF THE BENCH, which is the dilemma (he’s best coming off the bench) and the overall reason I think the Thunder are struggling so badly in the post when it comes to offensive rebounds and post defense in terms of one-on-one matchups.

Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic can not play together in the paint.

They are both, clearly, perimeter oriented post players and even though this is an obvious, “no duh” statement to make, the problem with two perimeter post players is that A) They are typically undersized at their positions, so who on the team then has the body and the mindset to protect the rim and stop a wide-bodied offensive threat so that helpside defenders don’t have to leave their man to help, thereby giving up rebounding position to the other players? and B) If one or both of them are setting a screen or looking to shoot a long two or three…who is down low to earn the higher percentage shots and control the flow of the game?

Like I said, much has been said and I expect much more to be said, but let’s not forget that warts are more visible in losses and overlooked in victories. But the inverse of that is also true, the sky isn’t falling after a loss so let’s not dismiss the positive steps that the team has made so far when a five game winning streak has come to an end and we’re all understandably disappointed because of it.

It just means that we must readjust our expectations accordingly…even if we could be really, really excited and maybe even have championship expectations in the near future if we could just solve that ever perplexing riddle down in the paint.

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Joe, have you watched Singler lately? Maxed out or still room to improve? Would you consider for the late 1st round or try to grab in the 2nd round somewhere? A 10 minute Durant backup option?

@Crow Love is from Oregon. We all knew he was going to be very good. He and Kyle Singler of Duke were co-Oregon players of the year 3 years ago.

They could have had Love instead of Westbrook in the draft of course.

Would you rather have a guy putting up 15 pts, 12 rebs in just 32 minutes a game (and as a sidelight hitting 46% from 3 pt now) or Westbrook? Where will they both be in terms of performance in 2-3 years?

Love 50% more assist than Green in less time. With Love on the court the Wolves are at team best on offense and defense. Love currently has a +15 Adjusted +/- while right now Green is actually at -15. Love has better counterpart defensive FG%, pts allowed and PE allowed.

As understandable as it is to be happy with the swing up from last season, things could probably have been even better if you changes 1, 2 or more of Presti's decisions.

DizzyDai :@Royce
I’m afraid we are turning into OU fans.

As an OSU alum, I don't know how to respond to your statement in an unbiased way but...I sure hope that no one here expects this team to win a championship this year and every year no matter the situation the team is in, so surely that's not the case.

Vega :The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that Beejyron Mullens is considered to be our future center by the management. There were rumors floating around for days leading up to the draft that they really liked Mullens, they traded up a spot to get him, and Coach Brooks went to Tulsa to check on his progress. That tells me that they have big plans for our big, white stiff.

I agree completely! I'm also starting to think Ibaka and Mullens will be our future at the 5. I'd say Presti's next target would be a starter quality PF (so Green can be moved to the 6th man spot).

@Royce

I'm afraid we are turning into OU fans.

4razr :
First, let’s put to rest the idea that OKC 3 of the 4 factors in Bucks game. Yes, they had a higher TO%, but that is not a positive. They were better in 2 and worse in 2.

Oh gosh. What an idiot I am. Obviously you are correct. I've got a million things going on in my head when recapping and didn't make the connection. Sorry about that to all.

@kfmsooner
This has been discussed before, and unfortunately given Etan's and Haywood's history, A) Etan would have to be waived because they could not co-exist on the same team again without it becoming poisonous and I don't see them handing Etan his walking papers, B) I can't see Presti renting Haywood for the Harpring contract, it's just too valuable a trading chip when paired with Etan's expiring to rent Haywood, and C) Rarely does a team bring in a player that would require a complete shift in offensive scheme and direction less than halfway through the season on a team that is above .500 and very much in playoff contention, unless the player is a steal or in the long term plans of the organization.

Though Presti does much prefer trades to free agency.

The scenario everyone is missing is trading for Brendan Haywood. His contract is easily swapped for Harpring, it expires after this year, and he provides the rebounding/shotblocking that we need. Haywood is second in the league with 2.33 (or so) bpg and averages almost 10 rpg, and he is an exellent offensive rebounder. We get to see how the Thunder play with a big man, we get to see how Green plays next to a more traditional center, Kristic can move to the bench where he belongs and at the end of the year, the slate wipes clean. Bosh is still on the radar, or we can resign Haywood and make another move. We probably don't have to give up any assets to the Wizards since Harpring's contract is covered by insurance (mostly), so it works for both teams, at least once the Wizards give up and blow up their squad.

The scenario mentioned once that I love is trading for Kevin Love. He is the perfect player for us at the 4. Unfortunately, the Wolves probably don't give him up for anything on our roster besides Durant. Minnesota has a lot of picks next year already...

Checking the last 10 years I only found 2 cases were a team moved up in the top 10 by giving another low 1st or future 1st rounders. In each case they only moved up 2 spots but this was in the top 5 so that is a bit different. I found a few cases of teams moving into the top 10 but with packages involving vets and future picks. I'd guess that #15-18 and #24 wouldn't get beyond #11-12 at best without other elements involved like cash, players or taking players or future picks. But it will all depend on who is available, needs, circumstances.

I don't know if this team needs to make any trades. pretty deep draft, take the best available player at 13ish pick. dexter pittman with the 20ish pick. problems on the glass will diminish as ibaka gets more time, he will be a monster in 2-3 years.

I only understand the argument for Okafor over Bosh from the stance that Okafor would be easier to acquire. Beyond this, there should be no debate. Bosh is an elite scorer and competitor with the athleticism and length to be a great defender. He's quiet and steely on the court. He's a solid foul-shooter, which Okafor is not. Plus he's only 25 to Okafor's 27. I don't know why anyone would suggest he isn't worth the extra millions. Okafor could help a lot of teams, but Bosh is The Missing Piece for about half the league.

The only reason Bosh WOULD not come here is if Presti/everyone else in the Thunder organization is unable to paint a picture of OKC as the best place to be for the next 5-10 years. It's better than Miami: Wade will always get hurt and their fans stink; it's better than anywhere in New York: they Knicks are a mess with no viable pieces in place and Nets fans only want LeBron. It's better than Chicago, et al because those franchises don't seem serious about winning. This is the place to be, nightlife be damned. Does that seem like such a tough pitch?

A frontcourt of Bosh and Ibaka makes a lot of sense, as does Jeff Green coming off the bench. Bosh shouldn't have to play center, and neither should Ibaka, really, but this defense is already designed to bring help from all positions with length and quickness. And it wouldn't get much longer or quicker than that Thunder lineup. Serge has shown spunk against some top-class bigs this year, and that front line could be surprisingly great on D and on the glass.

The more I think about Bosh on this team the less I want any changes to be made this season. Why should chips be spent in acquiring a piece that doesn't fit for the long run? This team should make the playoffs as-is, but no mid-season injection of Haywood or Gortat would be enough to put the Thunder over the top against the Lakers, Mavs, or Nuggets in the first round. Maybe the Rockets... I'm just building on what many others have said.

If I wake up tomorrow and Bosh is moving to Miami, I think Amare Stoudemire should be target #2. Athletically similar to Bosh, he's an elite, efficient scorer, could be taught good defense, and isn't being looked at by many contenders. I don't have a great read on his attitude or his ideas for free-agent destinations, but I like the idea of a rejuvenated Amare playing in OKC.

If BJ is our future center then we are in trouble. He is just like the thousand tall, stiff centers that everyone hoped would develop, but never did. He couldn't even start in college. He was 7 feet then. I just don't see him ever being a good NBA center. I hate being negative normally, but I just don't think this guy has "it."
I would take someone like Okafor.

@Steve H
If we are grabbing Okafor, it is in all likelihood so that we can pair Green with a more fitting center, not so we can just let him go in a few years. Also, I look at the West and I wonder how much Okafor upgrades the team. Nawleens traded Chandler for him, in part because Chandler was hurt, in part because they thought Okafor was better. Honestly, Okafor hasn't adjusted well in NOLA, and is an afterthought when you say, "What good players does Nola have? Paul, duh, and West. Geez, they can't win with just 2 guys." True story, my father loves basketball. He is the reason I am into basketball. The other day I asked him what he thought the Thunder would look like with Okafor. You know what he said? "Who?"

You don't go deep in the playoffs, don't get a first round home matchup with "Who." Not against the likes of Gasol, Duncan, Amare, Dirk, Boozer, Yao, and Nene. Heck, even bad teams like the Clips and Wolves have Griffin/Kaman and Love/Jefferson. This isn't the East, where you have perhaps 4 game-changing big men in the whole conference.

We are exceeding everything I expected from the team. I thought we would be 30-35 wins good, and we are looking at around 45 right now. That's great, and I'm enjoying it, even the frustration of losing to a team we should beat. But, hopefully like Presti, I'm looking at the future too. This team can go places, has the talent now and the assets for the future. It would be disappointing, more than anything, to see this team sit on it's hands when it is position to bring the league to it's knees.

If we could add Okafor this season, not only do I think we would be a lock for the post season- looking at everybody's current record and what we have done without a center, we might even be a top 4 seed. I think that would be worth overpaying a bit for- even if it means we have to let Green go down the road to retain the rest of our young talent.

Thomas, Krstic and a 1st and second rounder for Okafor and Mo Pete. Saves Nawlins a ton of money, gives them a decent center (Krstic) so it doesn't completely look like they are giving up on the season, and a couple of picks going forward. We get to slightly over-pay for the last piece of our puzzle, as well as carry the last year of Peterson's contract. Maybe we get to re-sign Green next year for less than #5 picks usually earn- otherwise, we still have our top pick in this year's draft to shop for a back-up 3 if we have to let him go.

What about a Gortat kind of center? Either get Ibaka in the starting line up or get gortat. Kevin love would be the perfect player on the thunder because he is a great passer and one of the best rebounders in the game.

@Kev
We've got Maynor now, and I like him more than Roddy.

Vega :The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that Beejyron Mullens is considered to be our future center by the management. There were rumors floating around for days leading up to the draft that they really liked Mullens, they traded up a spot to get him, and Coach Brooks went to Tulsa to check on his progress. That tells me that they have big plans for our big, white stiff.

I'd rather have Beaubois . . .

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Beejyron Mullens is considered to be our future center by the management. There were rumors floating around for days leading up to the draft that they really liked Mullens, they traded up a spot to get him, and Coach Brooks went to Tulsa to check on his progress. That tells me that they have big plans for our big, white stiff.

@FrCastro
You think he'll still be available?

@Kev
Henderson plays for Larry Brown, so I'm not as worried about him. However, Hill is a bit troubling.

Vega :@KevHill and Henderson aren’t getting off the bench for their respective teams, so it is probably too early to say for both of them.

that's usually a problem if you are lottery picks playing for losing teams . . .

It would be a bad idea to get a piece that just makes the team better. The Thunder are approaching a point where they can sit and wait for their pitch, than swing for the fences. It's a much sounder plan to wait for the right thing than trying to address the weakness in a growing team right now. Who's to say that Chewblaka doesn't develop into a rebounding monster over the next two years. For all the cap space and draft picks this team has its greatest asset is time, not many teams can afford to wait for the right situation.

@Kev
Hill and Henderson aren't getting off the bench for their respective teams, so it is probably too early to say for both of them.

Vega :@KevIs it fair to say that he is a bust?

are you talking about Henderson?

it's too early to tell, but he was #12 in a weak draft - even Hill (#8) isn't playing for New York . . .

@Kev
Is it fair to say that he is a bust?

Vega :@KevScoring swingman off the bench, although there will be several better options in free agency this offseason. It was merely a thought.

no offense, but Henderson wouldn't get off the bench for us . . .

@J.G.
They seem to be paying a great deal of attention to B.J's development. That would indicate to me that he is being groomed to start eventually, but that is just a guess.

@Kev
Scoring swingman off the bench, although there will be several better options in free agency this offseason. It was merely a thought.

why would we want Gerald Henderson?

@Vega
Mullens definitely is the wild card of this entire scenario...but the question is if he's being groomed to be the starting center...or another backup off of the bench?

If it is the latter, then we're back to square one, unless individuals think Ibaka is the permanent answer at the 5.

I'll wager that we could get Gerald Henderson from Charlotte in a Maynor-type trade. Etan for Nazr and Henderson works, although I'm not too keen on taking Nazr's awful contract.

@justin
I can't see any way either of those guys are traded. The Clips actually have a nice core set, and Kaman is a major part of it. Same thing with the Bucks. Personally, I say we wait and let Mull-Baka develop instead of trading for a big, but that is just my opinion.

I think Chris Kaman or Andrew Bogut could be had but we'd probably have to trade James Harden..

assuming that happens (big assumption) - who do we get at 7/8???

Okafor is the only legitimate center that is available via trade. Kaman isn't going anywhere, neither is Jefferson, Biedrins, or Bogut. Unless we get lucky in the draft, or Bosh signs with us, Okafor is the only option.

@FrCastro
That's just speculation. This is projected to be a very good draft. I can't see any reason why a team would want to trade down for two lesser picks, especially a team picking in the top ten.

@Kev
We can trade both picks to pick near 7/8.

NO is probably desperate enough to cut salary that they would give us Okafor for Etan and junk. I'd take that, even with Okafor's huge contract.

Phoenix may miss the playoffs, but its not likely -

we are looking like we will get two picks in the 13-23 with that . . .

the only way you can make anything decent out of that is if you have VERY good scouting, and even then it's a semi-crap shoot . . .

If u got NBATV watch how bosh is playing Duncan.

Gortat is who I'd like. He'd compliment the other post players...I think! Good Defense and Rebounds...

f5alcon :

4razr :
I expect Presti to do something dazzling that will catch us all by surprise. Any way he can fix the lottery so we end up with one of the first 2-3 picks?

only if we and the suns both miss the playoffs

thats still a possibility. Phoenix has been playing like crap lately...

maybe this roster with a few draft picks this year is good enough to win us a championship....

@Royce

The team is a little bit ahead of schedule in terms of record largely due to the fact that the defensive game plan has been terrific - I credit Scott Brooks (for implementing the defense) and Kevin Durant (for leading the commitment toward defense) for this turnaround.

I'm not sure why everyone is assuming this team can be any more patient that they've shown. If you look at the timeline of when our rookie scale players will be up for new contracts.. the future of this team is fast approaching. Decisions concerning the lasting structure of this roster will have to be made within the next year to year and a half that will be difficult to change.

Again, look no further than the Portland Trailblazers. Three seasons ago they were 32-50, then they improved to .500, and last year they made the Playoffs. In three years they drafted their star, drafted his supporting cast, and made various free agent signings and trades to fill in the rest of the roster. Now they are expected to compete and their core is set in for several years, for better or for worse.

We will have the same decisions to make by the end of next season at the earliest and by that time the roster is set and making further moves becomes difficult. There's nothing wrong with appraising the team objectively during this suprising season, because if it's not done this stretch will be over in a heart beat and all of a sudden we're the Portland Trailblazers mucking around signing veterans out of desperation and extending our mediocre role player to a huge contract.

You can't just let 'a year and two play out'. In two years, this roster will be set just like Portland's and the expectation to compete will be there just like Portland's.

4razr :
I expect Presti to do something dazzling that will catch us all by surprise. Any way he can fix the lottery so we end up with one of the first 2-3 picks?

only if we and the suns both miss the playoffs

I expect Presti to do something dazzling that will catch us all by surprise. Any way he can fix the lottery so we end up with one of the first 2-3 picks?

@dream catcher
Thumbsup. He's done pretty well so far.

Presti is a smart, patient, calculated person, I trust him to make the best decision possible for this organization.