Daily Thunder.com

Deez Nutz :@KevI’m partial because I absolutely love Shaun Livingston, but if you look at the box score he was +8 and pretty much only Thunder on + side of ledger. His defense was fantastic. Also note that Dallas went on its run when Livingston came out of game at 9 minute mark. He was in for Durant then Westbrook and I understand that those guys are going to get crunch time minutes, but he needs more time on the floor. His basketball IQ is off the charts. Right now he’s really only contributing on the defensive end but wait till he gets a green light to actually run an offense. He still can’t shoot but he can finish and he does EVERYTHING right.

the issue with Livingston defensively is that he needs the right assignment - Howard is really a SF and he's about the same size as Livingston. Livingston IMO has issues with small guards. Obviously Livingston fits better defensively if he's on the court with Westbrook . . .

Can Livingston still penetrate after his major injury? I havent seen it - I would like for him to drive and kick - if he can . . . also, his shot was better last year, not that he's had a lot of chances outside . . .

agree with you about his IQ - I love high IQ guys on the basketball court - they make all the difference . . .

for me, the jury's still out . . .

@Kev
I'm partial because I absolutely love Shaun Livingston, but if you look at the box score he was +8 and pretty much only Thunder on + side of ledger. His defense was fantastic. Also note that Dallas went on its run when Livingston came out of game at 9 minute mark. He was in for Durant then Westbrook and I understand that those guys are going to get crunch time minutes, but he needs more time on the floor. His basketball IQ is off the charts. Right now he's really only contributing on the defensive end but wait till he gets a green light to actually run an offense. He still can't shoot but he can finish and he does EVERYTHING right.

thunder really need a shooting coach to tell them how to shoot the 3 ball. i mean it is bad. last 2 minutes i there were 3 airballs from downtown.westbrook iam looking at you.

The crowd exodus began in full after Dirk hit that 3 to put them up 10 pts (I think it was 10) with 1:40 to play. That was a big shot, but the game was not over. In a league where TMac scored 13 points in 35 seconds to beat the Spurs of all teams, leaving at that point in the game shows either a complete lack of understanding about the NBA game or a whole lot of weak fans. Either way, it sucks it had to be in front of a national audience. It's hard to be a player on the court trying to play until the final buzzer when everyone else in the building has decided the game's already over.

@Anonymous

I didn't say it was beyond your reasoning, as I wasn't addressing this to whoever you are. I hear people say that same thing all the time. The answer is straight from the coaching staff themselves. They take pride in the versatility of their players, and ask them to defend several positions, especially in transition. It makes no difference if Russell gets back to guard Berea, or if Thabo does it, or if Green does it. It is much the same way that they allow defensive switching on the PnR, which is why you see Green on Berea and Russell on Dirk.

As to why, I can't say. Maybe they like Russell's nose for the ball on the boards. Who knows.

Just because the PG had to get back in high school doesn't mean that same principle has to hold true in the NBA. Maybe you like it that way, doesn't mean it's the only way.

KD and Green can get to the rack. But neither do it from the PnR at the top of the key. Again, I wasn't addressing this to you, but to the issue of Harden driving the lane. Harden and Russell run the PnR, and Harden does it the best. Livingston will do it from time to time, but he's never a scoring threat from there. Back when Carlisimo tried to run KD as a 2 guard, the PnR was the worst executed mesh you've ever seen.

I mention the lower bowl and suites because that's all you see on TV.

Don't take things so personally.

Thanks Jax about the Addias thing. I didn't realize that.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct

Yea I had just found that out myself. Kinda sad that a one game TEAM thing is overwritten by a shoe contract. oh well Was still nice to see

Lastly, Serge and Etan are sponsored by adidas. That's why they couldn't wear KD's shoes. They had to find an orange adidas alternative.

Oh, on the parking issue. The people you see leaving in droves are lower bowl and suite level. All of those tickets have assigned parking. If you have to leave the underground cox building parking and go north on robinson, it is clogged. Anytime you have half a dozen cops directing traffic through one street, you know it's bad. Supposedly, there is a parking solution coming for this in the future. We'll see.

Whew, lots to read over here.

1. Russell's rebounding. Don't like it? Blame the coaching staff. They repeatedly say that rebounding is a 5 man effort, that they need all 5 guys to rebound. You can't rebound and get back on transition defense at the same time. As we've said around here plenty of times before, just because your high school coach said things had to be a certain way, doesn't actually mean those things have to be that way. You may think it's elementary, but could just be different for the NBA game.

2. Harden is the best player we have running the pick and roll. We ran it with him several times, mostly for positive success. Last night he didn't pass out to the screener once, so he got predictable with the drive. If you think KD can run the pick and roll from the top of the key, you haven't watched him try. That's just not his play. He's much more effective getting the ball off of a double screen.

Now, to my thoughts. The Mavs have a great offensive scheme. They have great setup plays, great double screens, backdoor cuts. Their half court offense is fun to watch. If Jason Terry had a normal night, we'd have lost by 30. I was impressed with our defensive understanding against such a well run offensive scheme.

Opposed to that is our offense. We have a very elementary offensive half court scheme. I know our coaching staff is a defense first staff, which means we may need to add an offense first mind. I also know that our guys can't run what we've got that well, so adding complexity at this point is probably putting too much on their plate. Especially for Russell, he still communicates his passes when setting up the offense. There's very little off the ball movement. There's no flex on the baseline. We're all iso plays, transition offense, and a bit of the PnR or PnP thrown in from time to time.

If our defense can understand how to defend a complex and well run offense, surely we can eventually come to a place where we can run a similar offense ourselves.

I don't understand. Before this year kicked off people were being realisitic with their expectations... due to the hot start however people are complaining like crazy about things we knew were going to happen.

Look people we have a VERY young team. We are going to be inconsistant. Our Head Coach, belive it or not, is fairly young for a head coach. The Thunder have a lot of room to grow in every way possible (except for the genious GM ;)

If this year we finish in the top 8 defensive teams I will be content. This year, to me at least, was still a "rebuilding" year in terms of player development (Defense). I hope that we see something similar to last year. After the new year (our offense starts to click, aka player and ball movement) and we rattle off quite a few W's.

However if we continue to stay in the upper realm of the league in team defense I am more than satisfied, I'm happy this year. Oh and you know 20 mins a game for Ibaka :)

@justin

We wanted Chandler...his post game consists mostly of jumping in the air and catching the alley from Paul, and finishing with an oop. Seems like something Ibaka can do with similar,if not better, success. If only we had someone who could pass it in the air in the general viscinity of the rim??? (Insert sarcastic remark about Russel Westbrooks jumper being compared to this, eventhough I am still in the mindset of taking the good and bad with RW.)

I do imagine KD will have a big night in store for the Pistons. I just got really excited for that game.

(organ playing) And the Lord said-a, be set free from the long range jump-a, be set free from the three, go to the promised land westbrook take it to the promised land, and throw it down again-a, go back to your first love and-a throw it down on the tall walls of jericho and they will crumble-a, they will crumble.

@kev

Ugh, I typed up a response and hit Submit and nothing happened.

Traffic is not bad. Parking in Bricktown is very spread out. If you park in any of the paid lots, there's very little, if any, wait to get out of the lot and onto the road.

The free parking that extends from Harkins - Toby Keith - Bass Pro is the largest lot and the most congested after games. It takes a little time to get out. From the back of the lot to the road, I probably average 15-20 minutes waiting. The level of congestion isn't exceptional; I went to Mustang High School, an average sized 6A school, and the congestion level is comparable (but on a larger scale.) There aren't any nightmare bottlenecks, just a lot of cars.

Once you get on the road, you're home free.

I wish everyone would stay until the end of the game, regardless of the score, to support the team. But I understand that isn't always possible, and if the score isn't close (either way) and you need to leave... well, it happens.

But last night was the worst case all season. Only down by 2-3 points, plenty of time left on the clock, and every staircase leaving the building was full of people vacating the arena. I couldn't believe it. By the time the game was actually out of hand, over 1/3 of the building was ALREADY empty, and a good chunk of the people left (probably 10%) were Mavs fans chanting MVP. Unreal. I was very disappointed.

Krstic showed a nice touch with that hook early in the game too. I hope they at least attempt to post him up 5 times a game. It would certainly be better than Westy trying to dribble and dribble looking for an open man desperately.

Traffic is not bad at all. I don't get it.

Traffic isn't terrible. Parking in Bricktown is pretty spread out. The wait to get out of any of the paid lots is minimal b/c most of them are very small (<100 cars, average is probably 50-60 if I had to guess.)

The worst backup is in the free parking that extends from Harkins - Toby Keiths - Bass Pro. But even that isn't exceptionally bad. I went to Mustang High School, just a normal 6A school, and I would say the congestion getting out of the parking lot is comparable (if just on a larger scale). Once you get out of the lot, you're good to go.

I get upset with people not staying until the end to support the team, but I can understand sometimes if the score difference is really high. But I was blown away last night. ESPN game, plenty of time left on the clock, only down by 2-3 and every staircase in the building was full of people leaving. By the time the game actually was out of hand and a comeback was improbable, the building had already lost over 1/3 of the crowd, and a good chunk of what was left (at least 10%) was Mavs fans shouting MVP. Unreal.

An effective one, anyway.

Ibaka does not have a post game.

@kev

agreed...but if the jump shot isn't going down...we need Durant, not just Harden (and Westbrook should just do this period) to drive to the hole. We BADLY need a post game, and not one that changes the team (**SHAQ and the Cavs**), we NEED more IBAKA!!

dirkdajerk :Man, jump shots are killin the Thunder. Should have two more Ws right now. One vs the Cavs and one last night vs the Mavs….hmmm ryhme..niceOk, Thunder lead the Cavs for what…just short of 3 qtrs, and around the same last night. (Which is a qtr improvement from last year, No? Does this mean next year they will start playing full games? Hopefully) Vs. the cavs we start jacking 3s to keep up, last night we just shot jump shots all night, Which worked for a half or so. Harden had the right idea in gettin to the bucket and to the line.(With this kind of mentality he is gonna be getting the ‘calls’ in the future) KD should have been the one to do this as well. Looked like he, not necessarily shied from the spot light, but didn’t embrace it. Ibaka NEEDS more minutes. He can be such a spark (see Nick Collison) and force underneath. Krystic hit some good jumpers…then didn’t shoot anymore.
BUT, to be disappointed in losing games to the Cavs and Mavs isn’t the worst thing. We need a W vs Detroit. I could see another 3 game losing streak after that (hope I’m proven wrong), a three game winning streak after that…and an up in the air game to finish the year vs Utah, depends on what team shows up.
I can’t wait for Christmas and New Years!!! Half cause they are awesome times, half cause that means the tough sched for the month of Dec is over. Bring on 2010, go Thunder!!

we are a jump shooting team (I sound like Charles Barkley) it's what we do - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt . . . that's why we need a post game . . . we also need our perimeter guys to shoot better . . .

Mark! :Another thing I’m disappointed about is our home crowd. I dunno how often you guys get a chance to go to games, but it never fails. If our team is down, even by a little, people start clearing out. Even with 5 minutes left on the clock.
Before we even get to the final 2 minutes, over 1/3 of the attendees have already left. I know the players notice, they have to. Every aisle is literally packed with people eager to leave the game. I get discouraged, I’m sure the players do too.

I'd like to hear more (if possible) . . .

from those that attend regularly - is traffic THAT BAD where people seem like they have to leave, or is that an excuse for people not wanting to stick it out??

Man, jump shots are killin the Thunder. Should have two more Ws right now. One vs the Cavs and one last night vs the Mavs....hmmm ryhme..nice
Ok, Thunder lead the Cavs for what...just short of 3 qtrs, and around the same last night. (Which is a qtr improvement from last year, No? Does this mean next year they will start playing full games? Hopefully) Vs. the cavs we start jacking 3s to keep up, last night we just shot jump shots all night, Which worked for a half or so. Harden had the right idea in gettin to the bucket and to the line.(With this kind of mentality he is gonna be getting the 'calls' in the future) KD should have been the one to do this as well. Looked like he, not necessarily shied from the spot light, but didn't embrace it. Ibaka NEEDS more minutes. He can be such a spark (see Nick Collison) and force underneath. Krystic hit some good jumpers...then didn't shoot anymore.

BUT, to be disappointed in losing games to the Cavs and Mavs isn't the worst thing. We need a W vs Detroit. I could see another 3 game losing streak after that (hope I'm proven wrong), a three game winning streak after that...and an up in the air game to finish the year vs Utah, depends on what team shows up.

I can't wait for Christmas and New Years!!! Half cause they are awesome times, half cause that means the tough sched for the month of Dec is over. Bring on 2010, go Thunder!!

Another thing I'm disappointed about is our home crowd. I dunno how often you guys get a chance to go to games, but it never fails. If our team is down, even by a little, people start clearing out. Even with 5 minutes left on the clock.

Before we even get to the final 2 minutes, over 1/3 of the attendees have already left. I know the players notice, they have to. Every aisle is literally packed with people eager to leave the game. I get discouraged, I'm sure the players do too.

@Chas

Driving the lane fishing for fouls is more about desire than anything else. It sucks. All of those guys had the ball in their hands in the fourth, but Harden was the only one driving and taking the hits.

I don't know why. If our coaching staff is really telling the team to forego Durant, Westbrook and Green and is telling Harden to gogogo in that situation, then maybe Coach of the Year honors are not in order.

I tend to blame the players on the court more than coaches though. The biggest impact coaches have on a game is with substitutions and he kept all four of those guys on the court for most of the fourth.

Yeah, I was flipping back and forth between the game and another show last night. I was excited to see that they were still in it that late. I kind of forgot about the game until this morning on Sportscenter...and I thought, "What happened?!?!?"

@Royce

The one time he got an offensive rebound in this game he just kind of laid the ball up softly and it didn't go in. Hubie mentioned that Russ should have stuffed it.

Russ reminds me of Rick Vaughan from Major League 2. He should get back to just throwing the fast ball and quit throwing breaking stuff!

@Royce-- he did have that great rebound/put-back over Dirk in the 2nd quarter. It made me jump up and run to the computer to make sure "@Don is so hot etc..." hadn't missed it! heehee

girlballer :@kev– I heard that too. How you confuse Chewbaka with Green I can’t imagine!

I think he's over seventy so I cut him some slack . . . I love the way he analyzes the game - I learn something new each time I watch one of his broadcasts . . .

@kev-- I heard that too. How you confuse Chewbaka with Green I can't imagine!

Just want to say it's definitely agreed that Russ needs to go to the rim more. I think I mentioned something about it in the recap of the Denver game. When's the last time you saw him try and go up and cram on someone? He did that a LOT last year. I miss it.

I don't know that Green, Durant and Westbrook don't want to win enough, in fact that is pure nonsense after what we saw last year. Yes, Green was doing a great job inside and the Thunder should have exploited that more but it's easy for an inexperienced to team to not recognize this or get distracted in a way. The coaches should have changed the game plan and told the players to go low to Green. Inexperienced players and inexperienced coaches.

@Mark--I agree that Harden was successful driving into the lane, however Dallas realized it too, and collapsed on him forcing him to throw up an ill-advised shot hoping for the free-throws that everyone KNOWS the refs are NOT giving to a rookie with less than 4 minutes to go in a close game!

I also agree whole-heartedly that if that had been Durant on that play, he would definitely have gotten the call and probably the "and-one!" I also thought Green was having a great game, looked strong, and a little meaner than I have every seen him look.

spike :What made Green special in college was his court vision and passing ability, in addition to doing everything well. Seems like the court vision doesn’t come up as much in the pros.
I want to second Royce, hearing Hubie Brown talk about our team was freaking awesome.

thank goodness we had that option - instead of listening to our homers . . .

Hubie is getting up there though - he was mentioning Green Guarding Dirk - one time it was actually Ibaka, another time it was actually Harden instead of Green - Green was on the bench both times . . . also, he mentioned Collison when it was actually Krstic (Collison was on the bench) . . .

still, he's an analyst that makes you rewind the DVR and say "I missed that, let me take a closer look" . . .

What made Green special in college was his court vision and passing ability, in addition to doing everything well. Seems like the court vision doesn't come up as much in the pros.

I want to second Royce, hearing Hubie Brown talk about our team was freaking awesome.

James Harden should have passed the ball on a couple of those drives in the fourth quarter when the whole Mavs team collapsed on him, instead of attempting a tough shot.

He did turn the ball over twice on dribble drives in the fourth, I think that's what's being referred to.

@The DON is SO hot right now

The DON, KD is 6'9" with long arms, that's going to happen from time to time. It happens a lot to Dirk, too, though more in his early years. KD is dribbling a lot closer to the ground these days so it doesn't happen as much, but it's unavoidable when your usage is 32%.

@girlballer

I completely disagree about Harden. He was doing what Westbrook, Green and Durant were unwilling to do. When the game is close and the other team is finding their shooting stroke and starts pulling away, someone has to drive into the lane and get fouled.

Harden did it twice successfully. The play you described was his third time to go inside and he didn't get the call like he had the previous two times. By all accounts, Durant should be the one doing this because he's the one most likely to get the 50/50 calls in his favor. Not a rookie.

But Westbrook, Green and Durant have yet to do this for us. Harden is the only one, and he's been doing it consistently at the end of the game since Golden State (he didn't get the chance against Cleveland; he was at the scorer's table waiting to come in for a long time, but didn't make it into the game until it was already over.)

This is a good thing. It's what our team leaders SHOULD be doing. It floors me that Harden is the only one that wants the win bad enough to do it.

WHY WASN'T DURANT DOING THIS WHEN HIS SHOT WASN'T FALLING? It makes me want to pull out my hair.

I was happy to see Green going inside more this game, but when we needed him on the inside to score and (hopefully) get fouled, he was no where to be seen.

@Mark!

What makes it most infuriating is that he's shooting almost 10% BETTER on inside attempts this year but taking all those jump shots.

Didn't Scott Brooks say they focused almost entirely on defense in the offseason? It definitely shows, but maybe next summer they flip that around :)

Also, there's something I want to point out and maybe you guys can correct me, but according to my calculations and thorough research I have concluded that there has never been a star player in league history who has the ball stripped from him more than KD

Every time he drives to the hole it's a sure bet someone will swipe the ball from him, cause he is just so long and lanky that his dribbles are insanely high and it's really easy for people to just stick their hand in there and strip him

With the sort of ridiculous length he has, he needs to study film on MJ's game during the 2nd threepeat by the bulls, where his game was just the most spectacularly sexy fundamental one I have ever witnessed. He didn't dribble much. He was so efficient and beautiful it was scary. He would just get the ball, get in the triple threat stance, shoot over a guy or turn his back to them and hit them with one of his patented post fake moves and swish a fade away. Or, when getting the ball and facing the defender he'd survey the scene and hit a cutter if need be. He never uselessly dribbled around. There was purpose to every ounce of energy he expanded on offense. It was so beautiful to watch I was often brought to tears.

That is what KD needs to pattern his game after because he is so lanky and long he could easily get those kinda shots over defenders. He would also eliminate all the turnovers because he wouldn't be dribbling around so much and getting stripped constantly.

Sorry to ramble.

We weren't getting any calls when we had been driving the last few games so I don't know why Westbrook would continue to run up against a brick wall w/o any chance of shooting FTs.

I think that a lot of the problems that Westbrook and Green have is that the coaches are way more concerned with the defense than the offense. We love to pick and pop resulting in a long range 2 (instead of a 3 or an interior shot with a roll). The offense is otherwise centered around individual ability (either creating your own shot or driving and kicking out to a long range shot or attempting to finish around the rim after they've beat 3 players). I want to see improvement from Green and Westbrook as well but the coaches seem to just want the defense to be perfect. Green was playing really well down low and finishing at a high level but we didn't exploit that.

I'm not mad at the coaches because the defense has been top notch but I just don't think we need to blame the players if the coaches want them to focus on D way more than anything else. Also, we've played a really difficult schedule and I expect that Russ gets back to shooting 42% by the end of January. At least I hope.

Russ' % attempted from last year was:

Jump 58%
Close 34%
Dunk 6%
Tips 1%

The change has been frustrating and noticeable.

I would personally put this one in Scotty Brooks (L) column. When you lose control of a game late in the fourth due to poor decision making/lack of execution, that usually rests squarely on the coaches shoulders.

It really looked to me like Harden was trying to do too much in the fourth, he forced a couple drives and shots that, had we been the Spurs of a few years back, we would have used up the shot clock and then scored in control. I just felt like Brooks needed to call a timeout and get in their heads a little better about control and shot selection. The defensive effort was there, we just blew too many opportunities to score when we had them. I can see the genius of a Westbrook/Harden combo, they could really be deadly breaking down the perimeter defense with their slashing and dishing, but Harden needs time to mature before he gets to make the big decisions late in a close/winnable game. IMO

@Mark!

I brought that up before and I think the comparison to Evans (who is scoring efficiently) seals it; Russ is taking too many jumpers. He's finishing better this year than he did last year, but he's shooting jumpers 10% more frequently. Makes no sense.

Jeff Green's little run has actually brought his FG% and TS% to what it was last year and his 3pt% is over 30%.

I'd like to see Jeff incorporated more into the offense, it seems many of the set plays we run just keep him in the corner or at the 3pt line to spot up and that's not an effective use of his ability. If he's shooting jumpers they should be closer to the basket, not so many threes.

Royce :But if you move him to the two, isn’t that kind of counterproductive? He’s not a good shooter and now you’re putting him in a spot where he’s supposed to shoot?

You want your 2 guard to score. Kobe wasn't a reliable 3 point shooter for his first 5 years in the league or so. Same with Jordan. Wade still hasn't developed a 3 point shot. Sure, these guys were good shooters within 15-18ft, but how often do you see Russ try to spot up from that range off an assist? I've only ever seen him try those shots after his ridiculous dribble drive shenanigans.

I think Tyreke Evans's playstyle is a good cross example. Here's some stats from 82games:

Evans--
Jump: 47% Att, .371 eFG
Close: 50% Att, .564 eFG%
Dunk: 2% Att, 1.000 eFG%
Tips: 1% Att, 1.000 eFG%

Westbrook--
Jump: 67% Att, .372 eFG%
Close: 29% Att, .527 eFG%
Dunk: 2% Att, .625 eFG%
Tips: 2% Att, .400 eFG%

I also thought the shot clock usage was interesting. For 0-10 seconds used on the clock, Russ has attempted 49% of his shots for .459 eFG%. Evans is 40% and .576 eFG%.

Evans also averages 1 more free throw attempt per game.

So no, the 2 guard doesn't have to be a great shooter. Unfortunately, with drafting Harden, the ship has sailed on moving Westbrook to the 2. I think he can become a reasonable option at the point, but he needs to change his shot selection.

Russell Westbrook is becoming an absolute tragedy on the court

I watched the Wizards - Kings last night and Antawn Jamison is the kind of player I think that represents Jeff Green's ceiling. Jamison was scoring a lot inside and the moves he was making early on reminded me a lot of Jeff Green and how he scores close to the basket. Jamison is a better rebounder than Green and always has been, but offensively I'd like to see Green incorporate more of that face up, take it to the hole game like Jamison does.

Green is doing a better job of posting up and driving in the last few games - he has not been "settling for the three" - I hope this continues . . .