Home > Bolts > Thursday Bolts – 12.3.09

Thursday Bolts – 12.3.09

Darnell Mayberry on last night. An interesting take: “That’s what happens when a player as naturally gifted as thunderbolt23Westbrook thinks too much, when a natural scorer spends too much time trying to be a set-up man. You Thunder fans out there who want Westbrook to be John Stockton (you know who you are) saw what it looked like when he tries to be. And it’s precisely why Thunder coach Scott Brooks isn’t asking him to be.”

Nenad Krstic on his ankle: “I don’t really know right now (how severe it is), but I don’t think it’s too serious,” Krstic said. “But it’s a little sore.”

Don’t get your hopes up about Chris Bosh: “Not only will the Heat’s chances of signing Chris Bosh next summer be helped if the Raptors keep struggling, but a former Raptors official said Bosh doesn’t like Toronto’s cold winters. Bosh isn’t keen on playing in his native Texas but has said the Heat “seems to be an attractive place, playing with Dwyane Wade and playing in Miami.”

Dime prognosticates the top 10 point guards over the next 10 years: “To think that Russell Westbrook was under-recruited in high school is simply amazing. Now he leads one of the youngest and most promising teams in the NBA. The Thunder have great chemistry and this projects well for Westbrook. His takeover-game mentality and lockdown defense is exactly what the Thunder need. He needs to work on his shot and turnover rate to push himself into the elite, but playing with Kevin Durant should help his assists continually increase.”

James Harden moves into NBA.com’s top 10 in its rookie rankings: “In his last six games, Harden is averaging 14.8 points and almost two steals in 26.1 minutes of action. But more importantly, what’s up with the beard? “I thought about (shaving it),” Harden recently told The Oklahoman. “I just look like a kid if I shave it. I like to keep this grown, mature look. I don’t want mine to get as crazy as Baron Davis‘. But it’s just a little something I like.” Beard or no beard, Harden is playing like a seasoned veteran and is improving with every game.” Don’t shave it don’t shave it don’t shave it.

Let Shannon Dunk. LET SHANNON DUNK.

Nice words from Philadunkia: ”Just one quick overall observation about last night’s game vs. the OKC Thunder. Whatever that organization is doing, they should bottle it and sell it to the 76ers. They are what the Sixers claim / strive to be. The Thunder led by a certified NBA superstar, have a nucleus of young, exciting and athletic players who hustle, play unselfish basketball and score the ball. But most importantly they also have bought into the fact that to win on a nightly basis in the NBA a team must play defense and rebound. The results are an entertaining team to watch with a winning record (10-8) that includes road W’s against Miami, San Antonio and Utah as well as the chance at a legit playoff run. The payoff for management is a packed house for every home game. Seriously isn’t that the exact plan we have heard from Ed Stefanski for the 76ers, but has yet to even be remotely realized yet?”

Jason Whitlock’s Twitter is awesome: “Rick Reilly thinks Tiger thinks he’s Superman and that’s y he cheated. How bout simple blood flow to his midsection?”

Also, highlights of the 66ers 92-90 win over the Toros. Byron Mullens registered 14 points and 11 rebounds. But former ‘Zona stud Mustafa Shakur had 26 and four assists and hit the game-winner with 1.4 seconds left. (box score)

From Elias: “Russell Westbrook had 15 assists but made only 1 of 11 shots from the floor in the Thunder’s 117-106 win against the 76ers. Westbrook’s .091 field goal percentage was the lowest for any NBA player (minimum: 10 attempts) in a game in which he handed out at least 15 assists since New Jersey’s Jason Kidd went 1-for-17 from the floor (.059) in a 15-assist game at Dallas on Jan. 21, 2002.”

From HoopData: “I can’t help but compare this Thunder team to the tight-budgeted Tampa Bay Rays that shocked the baseball world in 2008. The Rays confounded analysts that year, going from worst to first without overhauling the roster with blue-chip acquisitions. Rather, they built a winner internally by focusing on defense, drafting well, and scouring the bargain bins to fill holes. Thunder GM Sam Presti might have taken a few notes on their model. Armed with the lowest payroll in the NBA, Oklahoma City just might have a shot at sneaking into the playoffs this year.”

We’ve got some cool DT-Shirt pics on the Facebook page. Keep ‘em coming! Oh, and what’s that I see on TV?

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@Taz-Maniac
I see. Well, people who complain about Westbrook because Westbrook is not Stockton are retarded. We should ditch Westbrook because he's not one of the three best point guards to ever play the game? I agree that we need to see where Westbrook develops from here – for 3 more years at least – before we can make any judgments on his ability to play the point. Projecting out point guards is notoriously difficult and Westbrook would be far from the first star pg to have a problematic first year (see: Billups, Chauncey; Payton, Gary; Williams, Deron; et al). Stellar first years like Chris Paul's are more the exception than the rule.

Has there been an update on Krstic?

@Sammy

What I meant is not ‘hauntingly similar’ numbers, rather ‘hauntingly similar’ improvements in growth or quality of play between season one and season two.

Westbrook went down in steals and rebounds, and while Stockton went up more in PPG, Westbrook is clearly much higher.

And as for higher percentage shooting, Westbrook shoots much more than Stockton and so his percentage would be lower.

Again my point is that Stockton did not become Stockton until year 4 and 5. Westbrook will not become Westbrook until some time in the future. I get tired of these people who complain that he is not a point guard, that he is not Stockton, that he is not where he should be to play in this league.

@stk7
I did see that. KD is using one too.

They asked three questions about LeBron, two about Ron Artest and in general, didn't talk about OKC, the NBA or KD. Just strange.

@Taz-Maniac

I was challenging your assertion that Stockton and Westbrook had 'hauntingly similar' numbers when had quite different rookie seasons. You seemed to suggest that Westbrook is on Stockton's trajectory when we have no idea how Westbrook will develop.

@Royce

What were the questions?

BTW, have you seen Jeff's new wallpaper on his Twitter page?

Anyone watch KD on SportsNation? Horrible questions. Just horrible

Sammy :
So you’re saying Stockton shot for a much higher percentage but scored way fewer points, rebounded much less, stole more balls, turned the ball over less, and developed into the second or third best point guard of all time… yup, almost identical.

What I am saying is that in 1986 there were people saying that Stockton good but that he was no Bob Cousy, or Walt Frazier, but 23 years later we recognize that he was better.

Quit saying what he is or is not, just enjoy the growth.

So you're saying Stockton shot for a much higher percentage but scored way fewer points, rebounded much less, stole more balls, turned the ball over less, and developed into the second or third best point guard of all time... yup, almost identical.

J.G. :
Not sure I’m understanding Mayberry’s point here....Can’t we just have a sweet hybrid of Westbrook and Stockton? Like a Weston Stockbrook? Sounds good to me. 15-20 points, 7-10 assists, 4-6 rebounds a night…yes, please.

In a sense we do have a hybrid. Go back and look at Stockton's first two years compared to Westbrook first two (I know that we are only in to 18 games thus far but to date, the numbers are hauntingly similar). They are almost identical with the exception that Russell has higher turnover, higher PPG, higher rebounds, and more minutes per game than Stockton.

I'll take that any day especially when you consider that Stockton didn't really become Stockten until year 5.

For brevity I left other columns out that they were close on as well.

Westbook
Year FG% 3P% RPG APG SPG TO PF PPG
08-09 0.398 0.271 4.9 5.3 1.3 3.34 2.33 15.3
09-10 0.409 0.311 4.6 7.2 1.1 3.61 2.67 16.3

Stockton
YEAR FG% 3P% RPG APG SPG TO PF PPG
84-85 .471 .182 1.30 5.1 1.33 1.83 2.50 5.6
85-86 .489 .133 2.20 7.4 1.91 2.05 2.80 7.7

Tampa Bay didn't confound analysts in 2008, at least not the ones that I read. Anyone that was totally surprised by Tampa's run wasn't paying attention. I actually put $20 on them at 200-1 odds to win the World Series that year... so, so close.

@justin

Hoopdata.com. They have their data tree built so that it copies into Excel easily. The original data is per 40 minutes, and I adjusted for 36 to match the query I did from basketball-reference in the last thread.

I'm sure there are rounding errors. If you're interested in holding statements to the 10th's of a percent, then revise my original statement to say ~10 assists, ~3 turnovers.

@Royce

I'm the guy in the shirt and let me tell you that game was amazing! I hope that somehow they are able to get those seats again so he can go. Really sucks to get those seats and then not be able to go because of work, especially when it isn't a normal work day. But besides being right behind the players the best thing there was definitely the courtside club...free food+Guinness on tap+the seats=pure awesomeness. Also got a pic with some thunder girls and on the court.

@Anonymous
No they'll be back. Hopefully we'll have more in a week.

@Royce
This is totally off-topic, but I want a Broingtons shirt in the worst way... but am I crazy or shouldn't the apostrophe be after the S? It's the "Broingtons' Boys Club" right.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct

Steve Nash has never had more than ten assists and 3 or fewer TO's a game per 36 in his career.. do you mean less than 4 i.e. 3.6 TO/G fits in your criteria? Where are you getting your stats from?

RW is much more similar to Devin Harris, Monta Ellis, et al than he is to the traditional PG's. This was known when he was drafted..

@dork
Harden:

There's an axiom in basketball that shooters think about when they miss their first few shots: Just keep shooting because they will start dropping soon. Well, that just isn't true. Confidence is a big part of shooting, and when a player misses multiple shots in a row, the rim tends to look much smaller. Harden learned this the hard way last week against the Lakers when he missed all 10 of his 3-point attempts (2-for-13 overall).

Sure, Harden is a good shooter and if he keeps shooting the ball then at least a few shots will fall eventually. But 0-for-10 or 2-for-13 isn't helping your team. Harden is capable of doing a whole lot more than just shooting. The next time he misses a few deep shots, he'd be better off looking to create an easier scoring opportunity closer to the basket or getting to the free throw line.

anyone with Insider want to sum up what Harden needs to "fix"?
http://espn.go.com/nba/

@justin

The difference is huge. Right now, Gilbert Arenas is 40% at 18 shots a game. He's not the only issue in Washington, but it's a great example. The difference between 13 and 19 shots a game is beyond just shooting efficiency, it affects the opponents defensive approach, takes shots away from teammates, affects the offensive play calling, the offensive mindset. All those things. You're talking Tony Parker, Rodney Stuckey, Monte Ellis territory.

And when those guys struggle, you can be assured that they are going to shoot their way out of their slump, not take less shots. They have to, they're the scoring focal point.

I don't think it's unrealistic for Russell to get close to double digit assist with 3 turnovers. And I'm talking about a per 36 minute game, not a season total like you mentioned for Stockton. Since 2000, Steve Nash has done that very thing 4 times, DWill twice, CP3 twice. Heck, even Ramon Session and Jose Calderon have done it. T.J. Ford, Brevin Knight and Jamaal Tinsley are very close to it.

@justin

One of the articles I read today (can't remember which) but Battier was asked about progression of younger guys... Year one was seeing if you can actually play in the league... year two was all about consistency. (something close to that) I am sure Russ will get more consistent this year.

justin :What’s the difference? Efficiency is efficiency. If he’s shooting 40% on 13 shots a game then he’s an ineffective scorer – you’re talking about 12-13ppg or so.

Oops, this is obviously incorrect. Russ is fairly efficient for a point guard because he gets to the line he's just very inconsistent.

What's the difference? Efficiency is efficiency. If he's shooting 40% on 13 shots a game then he's an ineffective scorer - you're talking about 12-13ppg or so. If he's taking 19 shots he's a volume scorer. I don't think either scenario is what we're looking for from Westbrook. The only thing he's doing is wasting possessions if he's shooting too much from the floor since every Thunder player aside from Thabo is a more efficient shooter.

Double digit assists with 3 turnovers or less per game? Sorry, that's very unrealistic. Even John Stockton only managed that once over a full season. I think it's just good to ask for a 2:1 A:TO ratio and hope that somehow Russ is able to get his FG% up a bit to 43-44% or so, and develop some kind of consistency on offense. There's going to have to be a real shift in the way he plays for him to be a double digit assist guy with anything less than 4-5 turnovers a game. He's too reckless. This is okay if he is more efficient offensively, he'd basically be similar to Devin Harris which is fine IMO.

@dork, a few weeks ago i did a comparison of FGA/ assists and Rw was in the top 1/3 for PGs, this season he hasnt shot all the often.

@mrs daily thunder

so are you gonna make us the most stylish fans in the NBA?

SMH, people on the Newsok chat with Darnell asking if we're gonna trade for Pau Gasol.

I wanna help Darnell out and ask a good question, but I get my Thunder fix here.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct

Read your post on last nights game summary. I didn't even realise he takes soo few attempts(granted I have been trying to watch Ibaka/Green lately :)) I also don't think many other people realise how few attempts per game he takes (13.6 or something?)

@johnnyincog

http://www.treeandleafclothing.com/shirts/96/

If you're an XL you can go to the physical store and pick up the last one. I'd call first.

Oh and if you are a girl you could be super hip and wear it big with tights and a belt. Just sayin.

justin :
Russ has to shoot better. Yes, he had 15 assists, but he’s not Jason Kidd, he’s not going to be a great player if he continues to shoot ~40% from the field.

I could live with 40% from the field when he's only taking 13 shots a game. But only if he's reaching double digit assists and 3 turnovers or less per game. If he can do that, and his defense improves the way Durant and Green have improved their defense, then it would be safe to say that he would be an elite player at that position.

There is a huge, huge difference between 40% at 13 shots a game, and 40% at 19 shots per game.

I just posted my Westbrook thoughts on the previous thread. I didn't realize last night's game discussion would be in today's bolts instead of last nights postgame.

I think Darnell has a point though. I would tend to agree that Westbrook hasn't arrived at the point yet where he can concentrate on all four phases of the game consistently yet (passing, scoring, defense, ball control). I see games where he gets all four, but most games you just see two.

I do think Russell is taking what the defense is giving him, and last night was no exception. So some variation in his performance is expected. And dork is right, Russell has to draw the defense out at some point. If the defense lags on Russell like it lags on Thabo, our offense will suffer at a standstill. He has to be a threat, even at 13 attempts per game (per 36).

Russ has to shoot better. Yes, he had 15 assists, but he's not Jason Kidd, he's not going to be a great player if he continues to shoot ~40% from the field.

@Colin

i agree. chris johnson could possibly set the season yardage record for RBs and we are calling him a future superstar???? he quite possibly could never have another year this good! and KD belonged on the NEXT issue during his rookie year.. this is way too late

@Anonymous
This man is a hero. I demand you all stand and applaud him.

of course if wade leaves miami then that might not work, also does miami have the cap space for him, plus our winters are way milder then Toronto. I dont expect Bosh to come here, but if we offered him max contract it might be hard for him not to.

on a different note our suns draft pick might gain some value this month, they have lost 2 in a row and play the lakers twice, mavs, spurs, magic, nuggets, blazers, cavs and celtics this month, so there 14-5 record could end up being 19-15 the end of the month, plus they play us and we can beat them.

Anyone else see ESPN's "Next" issue? There's no reason Kevin Durant should be on it.... the kid's already a superstar. All they're doing is stating the obvious. It's like saying, "You know, I think Brett Favre is a hall of famer." Come on ESPN!

(And for that matter, Chris Johnson shouldn't be in it either. Most already know he's one of the top RB's in the NFL....)

Wow, that Kidd stat is crazy. BTW, Kidd had an incredible game last night.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=470658...

funny interview KD and RW.. not sure if it has been linked already or not

I think the deal is that westbrook does infact need to be able to hit the 3 off of the dribble. Now before you go ballistic on me let me attempt to explain my thinking. If anyone else has noticed when he has the ball at the top of the key the opposing pgs have a tendency to play way off of him due to his ability to get into the lane. If Russ can develop a consistant shot from the top of the key off of the dribble that would force defenders to guard him much closer, therefore allowing him to get alot more penetration into the paint (which he can almost already do).

When Russ' shot doesn't fall I think he gets frustrated becuase he realizes it forced defenders to play him tightly. Has anyone else noticed he has yet to have a monster dunk this year?

As far as forcing him to be Stockton here is what I would like to see from Russ(eventually). A mix of Dwade(Drives)/Payton(Defense)/Billips(Running the offense). Now I'm sure most of you will point out that those 3 don't/didn't have a lot of high(+10) assit games. But then again they also don't have a 6'9" teammate named KD. Just my thoughts on it.

@johnnyincog
Yeah sorry about that. But we should have more early next week or at the latest two weeks. The definitely be back in time for Christmas. And we'll try and keep them in stock a bit now.

not cool on the DT t-shirts available banner ad when they are all sold out. when can we expect more? i need a sweet shirt for the game tomorrow.

@Clark Matthews

@J.G.
Agreed completely.

I don't understand what exactly the problem was. 15 assists to two turnovers? Westbrook isn't a great shooter, but he's not 1-11 bad. If he hits his normal percentage, he scores 15 points to go with his 15 assists and now we're talking about what an INCREDIBLE game he had.

I thought this was interesting from Hardwood Paroxysm...Livingston doesn't surprise me because he hasn't played much, but I suspect Etan has played close to or more minutes than everybody else on this list. Could this be one of the reasons he hasn't seen much PT lately?

TOP TEN PLAYERS IN PERCENT OF ATTEMPTS BLOCKED PER 40 MINUTES, AS OF 11.17.09

Player Percent Blocked
Acie Law 50
Pops Mensa Bonsu 38.8
Shavlik Randolph 28.6
Hamed Haddadi 25.0
Shaun Livingston 25.0
Jeff Foster 21.4
Derrick Brown 20.4
Nathan Jawai 20.4
Etan Thomas 18.2
Joel Anthony 18.2

@Clark Matthews
You beat me to it.

I'm waiting for Serge to start throwing down some monster dunks (he's capable), so I can start LetSergeDunk.com.

Not sure I'm understanding Mayberry's point here. Westbrook has had nights like his 1-11 shooting performance before, just without the 15 assists and 2 turnovers part. And is he saying that it was difficult to watch him rack up those career high 15 assists? Because we all did see what it looks like last night when RW makes passing primary and scoring secondary...and it looked pretty good. In fact, it was pretty awesome to watch. I don't think his 1-11 shooting had ANYTHING to do with him trying to be a setup man. He took open looks, they just didn't go down. End of story.

And I really don't think anyone here wants to sacrifice Westbrook's potential by boxing him into a "prototypical point guard" mold at all. Can't we just have a sweet hybrid of Westbrook and Stockton? Like a Weston Stockbrook? Sounds good to me. 15-20 points, 7-10 assists, 4-6 rebounds a night...yes, please.

And I think this bears repeating, the Thunder are undefeated when Westbrook has 10+ assists (of course it helps RW when his teammates are actually making jumpshots).

I disagree with Darnell. First of all, it's not like Westbrook wasn't looking for offense...he took eleven shots, he just missed all but one. Second, what was wrong with fifteen assists and only two turnovers. If that's NOT asking him to be John Stockton, imagine what he could do if he was.

The problem with Westbrook's offense lately has been that he hit a few three pointers last week. That success appears to have gone to his head, because way too many times (particularly in the second half against Houston) he has pulled up and taken a quick shot from deep instead of doing what he does best.

You know, those threes he was hitting last week were not off the dribble. He was getting the ball back and firing in a catch and shoot. But since he hit a few, now he thinks he has that range anytime.

hmmm...could it be a Krstic shirt????

What do you know a DT shirt! Alright someone claim it. And even though Russ had a career high in assists. Imagine what that game would have been like if his shot was falling.... And man did I miss collison. Only bad thing is with Collison is less Ibaka...

So Ibaka take notes from Collison and hopefully Collisons yomans(sp?) attitude rubs off on Ibaka.