Home > Other > Thunder takes care of Detroit, 109-98

Thunder takes care of Detroit, 109-98

December 18th, 2009

A most excellent team effort tonight taking care of the home court against a team with a lesser record. That’s what this team needs to do: beat the lesser teams and pick off a few of the elite teams when everything goes just right.

Box Score

game photo 1This was a pretty even victory in that it wasn’t the Kevin Durant show and a cameo by everyone else like we’ve seen more than a few times. Tonight we had six Thunder players with double figures scoring including Serge with a new career high of 12 points in 23 minutes.

In fact, to me the real story of the game was the second unit and not the first. The lineup of Livingston, Harden, Green (OK, he’s a starter) Ibaka and Collison was absolutely the linchpin for this victory. On that second unit in the fourth quarter they played some great basketball on both sides of the ball.  Harden had 10 and Ibaka had 6, which accounts for half of the scoring for the entire team in the  quarter.

It’s nice to see our top draft pick find his place and actually PACE  that second unit. The bearded one hit jumpers, he drove the lane and he finished at the line. It was like he decided that the second unit was his and he was the man. Good for him; especially when he delivers.

The Thunder also hit the deep ball tonight which for us is a nice surprise. 8/15 from three is mighty fine territory for the Thunder; it was the difference between eeking out a close game and putting your foot on the opponent’s throat.

Notes:

  • I said in the recap for the Cleveland game that for the Thunder a trend seems to be building: that we need to sink about 35 field goals or so to win the game. Less than 35 and we have a terrible W/L record; above 35 and we are smiling. Tonight the 37 field goals was great for getting us off the three game losing streak schneid.
  • James Harden gets the game ball in my opinion. Brian Davis and Grant Long gave it to Serge, who would be a good second choice, but Harden showed off more of his complete, old school game.  5/11 shooting (2/3 from three) with three boards, 8 assists, a steal, a block and 14 points. Oh yeah and he was a team leading +19 while he was on the court.
  • Serge must get his props. 6/9 shooting, 5 boards and a block. Iblaka was +17.
  • I think Brooks has settled on his big man rotation. Green and Krstic, subbed by Collison and Iblaka. In no specific order. Sorry Etan, sorry D.J.; these four are going to get the minutes in Brook’s tight 9 man rotation. Iblaka is a player. He can hit that little elbow jumper and he can play good face up perimeter defense. We already know he can block shots and get some boards.
  • James Harden uses the screen more effectively than anybody else on the team. When Colly or Krstic or whoever is screening for him, he goes left, right, left or whatever until the defender either gets leveled trying to fight over it or gets left in the dust on the wrong side of it. He did that in college and he’s a freaking animal doing it to the second unit of the opponent.
  • With the advent of Iblaka is anybody missing Chris Wilcox right now?
  • We’ve had a lot of Russell Westbrook hate on DT the last few games so I need to point out that RW had a Assist to Turn ratio of 5:0 tonight. He also got to the line 12 times.
  • I haven’t watched the Pistons all that much so I’m by no means an expert, but why is Chucky Atkins starting? If you are short of guards (no Ben Gordon or Rip) why not give most of those minutes to Will Bynum? To the naked eye he’s got twice the skill and talent of Chucky.
  • I was really getting tired of watching the Pistons get to the cup on our defense in the first half. I don’t know what the points in the paint for the first half was, but I bet it was ugly. Then, for whatever reason they went away from it in the second half.
  • Probably the other big factor in this win was the free throw shooting. Detroit fouled us a lot tonight: 31 times to 16 for the Thunder. That will give a coach an ulcer. It resulted in 20 extra cracks from the freebie line for the Thunder. All those fouls made the scoring opportunities (FGA’s +FTA’s) skew hard in the Thunder’s favor at 110-100.
  • Hey guess what? We get Houston tomorrow. You know that team that frustrates the crap out of the Thunder? They are a matchup from hell with their weird small ball thingy. Whatever!
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@J.G.

Thats a whole different ballgame, bringing up scouting reports for future draft prospects and seeing how they fit in our future. I'm talking about my immaculate, almost god-like, ability to evaluate current rosters

4razr :
Don, I never read one persuasive argument from you regarding WHY he should become the starter. I don’t think you were ahead of the curve, I think you suffer from premature speculation. By the way, Westbrook is not a disaster by any means. I think you would prefer we had hung on to Luke Ridnour (the last point guard picked in the first round by this team). Are you too young to remember the long, agonizing discussions over whether to start Rid or Earl Watson? Now there was a disaster.

You're jealous of me, this much is clear

I either read that wrong on hoopshype or they have it wrong. Maybe they don't match though. I can't imagine he would get much with the salary cap changing and turning 30.

Scola is a restricted free agent, so Houston can match any offer.

Vince :

ThuDer :
Why not trade Sefolosha and expiring Thomas for Battier and Landry

Why not trade Ollie for a unicorn and a bisexual gymnast?

So, they probably don't go for the Landry trade but what about signing Scola next year? I went on hoopshype and they have him as an expiring and I searched to see if he had been extended. Maybe someone can help me. If he is a free agent after this year I think it would be a quality pick up and I wonder if Houston wants him back now that Landry is so good. He's 29 so he's nearly past his prime hopefully that keeps his salary down. I don't know. What ya'll think?

I also wouldnt classify Westbrook as a disaster. Far from it.

He does two things I hate. The driving pullup jumper and the excessive offensive rebounding. These aren't serious, habitual problems or skill limitations. The coaching staff just needs to tell him to stop.

He lapses on defense sometimes, but I've seen him play good defense. He's capable, just needs to have his habits built up. This takes time, but it's not a skill limitation.

His court vision is improving. I still think it has a way to go before it hits his ceiling, though I do think his skill ceiling is lower in this area than some of the elite point guards. That's not something I'm hugely concerned about. I think we can win without an elite point guard.

So while I'm unhappy, I can easily be happy with the situation with some short term coaching fixes, and I can be really happy with some general development that will come from quality coaching and time.

@The DON is SO hot right now
Not to burst your bubble, but you'd have to go back to about December of last year to lay claim to being the first one to say that "Harden is the Thunder's shooting guard of the future."

The Draft Prospectus was then published May 4th, 2009 after the original first draft of that previous December. :)

http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/05/with-the-inser...

If Westbrook plays like last year when Ibaka's in the game( constantly driving to the hoop aggressively) I think Ibaka may be quite effective cleaning up the misses.

Don, I never read one persuasive argument from you regarding WHY he should become the starter. I don't think you were ahead of the curve, I think you suffer from premature speculation. By the way, Westbrook is not a disaster by any means. I think you would prefer we had hung on to Luke Ridnour (the last point guard picked in the first round by this team). Are you too young to remember the long, agonizing discussions over whether to start Rid or Earl Watson? Now there was a disaster.

Maybe 4razr is right. Harden could be the beta blocker(or Valium) Westbrook needs!

Isn't it funny how I, The DON, am always ahead of the curve on trends? I was the first one courageous enough to point out westbrook's disastrous play, paving the way for everyone else that felt like I did to find the courage within themselves to come forward and make their voices heard

Now, we see that The DON is was ahead of his time YET AGAIN, this time regarding Harden and how he should be the starting SG

Everyone here should feel honored and privileged to be subjected to my wisdom free of charge everyday on this glorious site run by the honorable Royce

ThuDer :If Harden starts where do the points come from on the second unit?

Let's see, we've got Livingston, Thabo, Collison, Ibaka, Thomas, what's the problem? Seriously, I see your point, but points on the second unit is not worth worrying about right now. Evaluating your starting lineup and seeing how those pieces mesh is more important. IMO. This might not be the best way to win games (remains to be seen), but it's far easier to figure out scoring on the second unit than it is to put together a starting unit that is top5 to top10 on both defense and offense. That's what we're after here. If ther starters weren't struggling so much on offense, I might be singing a different tune. But I don't see our current starters getting above average on offense. Harden is the perfect complementary guy on offense (at least that's what we've all been hoping, and that's how it looks). We'd probably improve (offensively) if we started Harden and Livingston over Westbrook or Collison over Green. Not advocating this, just sayin'... JH is ahead of schedule and it's time for him to start. Nothing against Thabo, but it's time. No messing around, we need to see what we've got. There's decisions to be made, this season and in the offseason. Got to put the best guys on the floor together and see what they can do.

And Battier is a great example of a Morey player. I'd be surprised to see him moved as well.

@ThuDer

I think the idea was that Houston probably wouldn't trade Landry for anyone on our roster save Kevin Durant.

Will the bisexual gymnast shoot an open shot?

Sene went from 60% inside shots to 70%.

Ibaka is at a bit more than 50% inside shot attempts overall right now. Which direction does it go? I would not be surprised if it went down over time. His jumpshot FG% is above his inside FG%. I'd assume that will change over time but that is the kind of thing he should work on. In NBA games, NBA practices or in the D-league. Or he could end up just doing his own thing like some others.

Sorry for the typos.

I am sure you can sort it out but of course
Sene "wasn't" a Presti pick.

Unlikely he comes back to NBA.

Folks are generally sure Ibaka is different, way different. He is getting / going to get the chance to show it.

Ibaka on the court this poor offense is significantly worse than with any other player except Wilks.

He is showing some good signs but I'm not going to ignore the rest. I might not make a point of noting the rest regularly though.

Ibaka is getting more run, a tougher test to be sure.
Good luck with that.

Ibaka on the court so far own team eFG% from 49% to 44% but it almost does for the opponent too. Defensive rebounding has dropped quite a bit, own fouls go up and turnovers go way up. Team defense actually gets 3 pts worse than when he is off. But what share he should get I'll wait on and consider kev's marks.

@Crow

This is why it's important not to get hung up on potential. Sene was athletic and had an NBA body; by those numbers he was a more effective player than Ibaka when he was on the court.

Part of that is probably the fact that most of Sene's action came in 4-5 minute runs in garbage time where he'd get a few rebounds or a couple blocks that would make his numbers look more impressive when extrapolated.

Sene turned a -16 +/- his rookie season (same as Ibaka is at right now) into a +16 last season. Yeah Sene was in garbage time so it doesn't mean much but it was still progression.

He turned a jumper than was below 25% FG rookie season into one that was 50% last season before he was let go. He turned his inside FG5 from bleow 50% to 80%.

I am not making a case for keeping Sene anymore. They never wanted to try him, he was a Presti pick so it wasn't going to happen.

But lets see when Ibaka gets to these Sene benchmarks.

50% jumpers? Check he is already there. 80% inside? He is at 42% right now. How long til that -16 +/- moves to zero? Mildly positive?

He has a favorable climate and buzz but he still has to do the work, show the results.

ThuDer :
Why not trade Sefolosha and expiring Thomas for Battier and Landry

Why not trade Ollie for a unicorn and a bisexual gymnast?

Why not trade Sefolosha and expiring Thomas for Battier and Landry

I mentioned Petro and Swift because they were the main most recent projects. Petro is a better comparison.

I left out Sene, a better athlete and runner because he never got any time for a decent NBA game evaluation. But the league made its decision.

Still if you do that comparison for th efirst 250 minutes Sene was a bit better from the line, rebounding, blocking, scoring but not shooting. They both never got assists. Sene at 0.1 per 36 minutes, Ibaka still at 0.0. I know it is not anywhere near main job (especially in this simple, poor offense) but for a guy who has played a lot, the son of basketball players I'd like to see an assist.

If Harden starts where do the points come from on the second unit?

justin :Lots of people don’t like this comparison, but until he shows a bit more on offense I’m still going to say Serge compares favorably to Tyrus Thomas.
Serge Ibaka is on pace to play ~1000 minutes this season which is the same amount Tyrus Thomas got in his rookie year at the same age as Serge. Their TS% and REB% are almost identical, with Thomas having a very slight advantage in rebounding and Serge having a very slight advantage in scoring efficiency.
Tyrus blocked more shots and got more steals but Serge is turning the ball over a lot less.
Serge Ibaka also doesn’t have an assist in 240+ minutes this season.
Anyway, I think those two guys have a lot of similarities in that they came into the league as raw, shot blocking big men (at the same age, incidentally) that could run the floor. Tyrus probably had an advantage on Serge with his tools, but Serge seems to be a slightly more competent player on offense and his jump shoot seems a bit further along than Thomas’ was.
In terms of potential, I think Serge has a bit more than Tyrus. Tyrus came into the league as a better defender and maybe slightly more NBA ready, but has very little potential as a threat on offense. Serge seems to be a bit smoother on offense, and with that jump shot that gives him more potential on that end IMO.

excellent post . . .

Sean Williams (Nets) would be another rookie comparison to Serge, I think.

Note that both Williams and Thomas have only made small, incremental improvements since their rookie seasons despite being two of only 10 players to have a block percentage higher than 6.0% in their rookie year (900 minute minimum).

Sometimes these defensive guys come into the league with all the athleticism in the world and just don't figure anything else out. Tyrus Thomas was a huge prospect and the Bulls are still waiting for him to become consistent on offense. Sean Williams has fallen off the Earth after a very promising rookie season. Kelvin Cato would be another, earlier, example of an athletic shot blocking rookie who never completely put it together.

I like the way Scottie Brooks is seemingly keeping things simple for Serge until he's ready to take more on. This can probably be evidenced by the fact that he has no assists and hardly turns the ball over, they aren't asking Serge to create offense and telling him to focus on what he'd doing well. That's good coaching, and hopefully leads to some nice development of other skills.

ThuDer :Harden perfect 6th man facilitator 30 min per game and closer. Exhibit A last pm

Have to disagree because of what is going on with the starting team offense on the court. Right now, nobody can hit a midrange jumper except Kristic and Durant, and nobody can hit a 3 period (Sefolosha has the best % and starters are at 30%). Green is hitting 30% on his jumpers, inside and outside the arc! I didn't see the beginning of the game, but I take it it wasn't pretty on offense. From what I saw previous games, in crunch time, nobody wanted to take a shot from outside, it looks like Green, Westbrook, and Sef, and even to some extent Durant, have little confidence in their shot. Harden can change all of that. He can score himself and make the game easier for everyone else, and take the pressure off of Green to be the second option. Green is better than a 30% shooter, but if he loses confidence and continues in his shooting funk, it's not good for his development. Durant will be ok, I'm sure, but he could be even better with Harden in the lineup. Our offense is too easy to shut down now, especially at the end of games. We need to see what will happen with JHard as a starter. Don't get overly excited about last night--look who we were playing. And look at who they were missing. We should beat teams like that--if we couldn't, then I would probably be focused on other issues--but we need to see what this offense can be with Harden in the lineup, and we need to take some pressure off of Green. I don't think the defense will suffer too much, because these guys are hustling and have bought in to defense, and Harden isn't a bad defender(though he still makes some rookie mistakes). He actually looks like he could be an excellent defender, and perhaps the most complete player on the team. And Thabo's always there on the bench when he's needed.

Lots of people don't like this comparison, but until he shows a bit more on offense I'm still going to say Serge compares favorably to Tyrus Thomas.

Serge Ibaka is on pace to play ~1000 minutes this season which is the same amount Tyrus Thomas got in his rookie year at the same age as Serge. Their TS% and REB% are almost identical, with Thomas having a very slight advantage in rebounding and Serge having a very slight advantage in scoring efficiency.

Tyrus blocked more shots and got more steals but Serge is turning the ball over a lot less.

Serge Ibaka also doesn't have an assist in 240+ minutes this season.

Anyway, I think those two guys have a lot of similarities in that they came into the league as raw, shot blocking big men (at the same age, incidentally) that could run the floor. Tyrus probably had an advantage on Serge with his tools, but Serge seems to be a slightly more competent player on offense and his jump shoot seems a bit further along than Thomas' was.

In terms of potential, I think Serge has a bit more than Tyrus. Tyrus came into the league as a better defender and maybe slightly more NBA ready, but has very little potential as a threat on offense. Serge seems to be a bit smoother on offense, and with that jump shot that gives him more potential on that end IMO.

@Kev
It goes without saying, keep up the good work Kev!

Did anyone else notice Byron was at the game last night? Seem that he had a bad ankle sprain and won't play in the next 2 games for Tulsa.

I'm sorry, I meant Josh Smith, not Josh Howard.

@Kev
Livingston may not be quick, but that block on the fast break was a momentum changer.

Also...

I heard Scott Brooks on the post game talking about Serge. He said that right now they're keeping it really simple with Serge. He said he is only giving Serge 3 instructions: play with energy, run the floor, contest all shots close to the basket.

It's pretty much what we expected, since we've said as much on this blog, but it's nice to hear confirmation from the head man. He also said that Serge is picking up on their defensive system and he's proud of his progress so far. I took that to mean that by the end of this year or even into next year, that Serge will be ready to do more than just contest close to the basket shots.

I don't really know who to compare Serge to. I'm not familiar enough with Kemp to know. I don't see the same physical abilities in Camby or Nene. He's buff like D12, but he's a better jumper. D12 is a true center, but Serge has more lateral quickness. So maybe D12's buffness, Josh Howard's athleticism. He's got a long way to go to realize his potential though, I'll just say that.

@Mark!

@Durantula

@happy247

thanks guys. . .

Thabo's contract is OK for what he is. One thing he's doing a lot more of is turning the ball over, about 5% more than his career average. He tries to do too much on offense sometimes.

He's destined to be a super sub off the bench, guard three positions, and maybe his offense would be more effective against backups. He's definitely superior to Jared Jeffries..

Kevin Durant's a good passer but he's 6'9" with the length of a center, keep that in mind when you see him crossing over a small forward and losing the ball to a 6' guard. He'll get better as a playmaker within a few seasons..

Kev, I rarely post but I always read your defense beakdown, please, please continue. It is truely awsome and shows a true love for the team. Thanks, thanks and thanks.

Anyone know why Durant can't pass?

I appreciate the analysis, Kev. Great work.

Sef HAS to develop corner 3 to be Bowen prime effective

Harden perfect 6th man facilitator 30 min per game and closer. Exhibit A last pm

Sef is a nitche player and a good one. Not starting 2 IMO

Ok, mammoth isn't fair objectively. But he gets paid about the same as Collison; still too much IMO. And New York would still give him away to anyone willing to take him.

He's not totally apprehensive on the offensive end. His handle in traffic. My eyes deceive

@ThuDer

Sefolosha is an average shooter from 3 without much confidence in his shot. Poor mid range game. Above average at attacking the rim but rarely utilizes his ability within the team offense.

But, he's also one of the elite wing defenders in the game today. He competently guards 1's, 2's and 3's, and is capable of shutting down a great player's offense on any night. He's the defensive corollary to the offensive players who can show up and single handed decide a game. And he was just signed to a very nice contract.

Besides, New York would give away Jeffries for free if someone would take on his mammoth contract. We don't need to trade Sefolosha for him.

His handle and ability to score is off the charts

Sorry I was wrong Sefalosha does everything better

@Kev

Your defensive breakdowns are the highlight of this site for me. I wish you were sitting next to me during games. I look forward to your posts after every game.

Thabo is a good defender,and has a good contract,no reason to move him.
and i dont like anyone from knick except Darko.