Daily Thunder.com

@The DON
Funny stuff dude. I consider the "raging bile duct" to be a wise fellow, and I believe he sincerely meant to do nothing more than limit the criticism you recieve at this site. For my part, I think its obvious that you don't give two craps about what anybody else thinks of your posts, and that is just fine. This is cyper-space. Nobody ever walks away with a blody nose. Rage on you magnificent bastard- well, magnificent might be a little strong, though I am comfortable with the bastard part. Anyways, more power to you brother- but if you do care just a little bit what people in our on-line community think of you, Jax was actually giving out some decent advice.

@J.G.

Regarding Aldrich; I heard very similar sentiments about Brook Lopez a couple of years ago. Of course you never know.

@justin
I completely understand your fear of Alabi (Thabeet-itis, no doubt). But Aldrich is just as big of a question mark to me as any other center in the draft. His lack of explosiveness and athleticism mean that he doesn't have the NBA ceiling of some other prospects and he's still never really been around other centers of his height and length yet to see how he would do handling individuals his own size or bigger. That being said, I think a more offensively gifted Joel Pryzbilla is what the Thunder need and would love to have, so I do like him as well.

And I would be ECSTATIC if Cousins falls to 25-30...but I just don't see that happening. I think he's a lock for the lottery or a few picks after it, even with his questionable motor and extreme dislike for contact in the post. The guy is a physical specimen and has a skillset/talent that you just can't pass up in a PF.

Solomon Alabi really, really scares me as a prospect. If we end up with a pick in the low teens I'd attempt to trade up to get Cole Aldrich or one of the power forwards, or just take best player available at that point.

I also like DeMarcus Cousins for a late first round selection (Phoenix pick?). He's huge.

A mainstay at the draftexpress board compared Collins to Will Bynum and he did it over 2 years ago. I don't know how accurate it is visually but I can see the stat similarity.

That and the low turnovers so far pop out, but it is just 3 games and I assume against easier opponents.

Jax Raging Bile Duct :@The
DON
If I could pester you for just a minute to hear me out. I realize you have a posting style going for you. I realize you’re on the new side when it comes to the regulars commenting on this site. I realize that you feel that your observations are legitimate and valid. I’m not here to criticize your observations. I know that you choose to communicate them through a negative reaction and exaggeration. I just wanted to say that when you get negative feedback from us, it isn’t so much that we feel that you’re wrong in your assessment, but it’s the way you communicate it that the majority objects to.
If you want to be taken seriously, try constructive criticism. This place is a good community, and you have, at times, taken the liberty to dominate it, and that spoils a good time for a guy like myself.
So, instead of this…
I’m sorry, I cannot stand the thought of westbrook as our future PG. He can not be our future at that position!
With as well as Harden was playing in the 1st half, bring him in and let him run the offense to close the game out before it’s too late. I am telling you, westbrook is in that mode now where he is just literally about to completely have us collapse and blow this game. Get him the F off the court Brooks
Try this…
Westbrook is in danger of blowing this game. Get it together Russell! Prove that you belong on the court!
That way, when Russell ends up 8-10 at the free throw line, with several clutch makes at the end of the game when no one could hit a thing all of a sudden, your comments come out positive and deserve positive feedback. You’re basically saying the same thing, but only from a positive point of view. It’s much easier to read, much more pleasant, much more level headed.
As far as that goes, comments about erections belong in the drivel that is ESPN conversations. I know that’s not just my opinion.

Jax you have done what no other human being has ever managed to do, which is to bring The DON to tears. But these are no regular tears, these are tears generated from a warm humbling. You reached out to me, with respect, honor, and candor on a gentlemenly frequency which has struck a chord in my once cold soul. Your constructive criticism, wrapped in warmth, with a side order of respect and a light sprinkle of grace has tapped into my dormant respectful demeanor. But dormant it shall be no more, thanks to you.

From this day forth, The DON pledges to uphold the high standards you politely requested of him, and he vows to never betray his pledge.

*places right hand on heart*

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
Great post! I was trying to write the same thing about The Don by saying he expects everything to go perfectly thereby rendering perfection, pedestrian and average, atrocious.

I like Collins. The thing about lawson that has impressed me that was a question mark when he came out is his ability to hit the three. Does collins have a good three point shot? Will be something to follow.

I have been a fan of this team for awhile and we have been burnt with the bigs. Sene, Petro, even Swift. Now we have Presti and I trust him. But I don't like Mullens penchant for jumpshooting so much. Prob not a problem with Alabi. Hope to see some of him as the college season kicks off.

Really appreciate everyone's input! Have a good one guys-and girls

Looks like Collins is hot. For the college game. And with some of the Westbrook issues.

Also, ever since I saw J.G. talking about Alabi, I've been on board with that. Kid looks like another Serge to me.

I'd actually like to see us grab Sheron Collins from Kansas, possibly with our second 1st round pick. In my mind, he's a Ty Lawson type. Solid, solid, solid point guard. He would be a great backup guard in the league. He's undersized and a bit bulky, and it may cost him a chance at a starting job in the NBA, but the dude can ball. If we can't make up our mind who our backup point will be (between Ollie, Livingston and Weaver) then a guy like Collins would be great.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
Well said.

Hey! Thanks guys! Was worried i would get buried when the post game wrap was put up! I couldn't have imagined that Lawson would have made such a big impact as he has.

Good info on Alabi. Can't wait to see him. Just think we need someone bigger than Ibaka, Collison, etc at 6'9", 6'10". Haven't seen him play yet. Might be a good complement to what we have. A big to play with durant and green in a roll similar to what Ibaka has shown the potential for.

justin :
Other than that, great bench effort! Young guys stepping up and looking good. Don’t think Serge is ready to supplant Collison, but Weaver looked fantastic out there, especially on defense. If he’s hitting threes and playing defense I think Kevin Ollie’s job might be in trouble.

You all know how big a Weaver fan I am, and I'm stoked about his play tonight. Totally agree with you justin about him supplanting Ollie in the near future.

I'm not sure if Kyle is bigger than last year, but I know there are definite advantages to his length and bulk on the defensive end. I'll say it again, I love his game.

We tend to pick on Westbrook's shortcomings around here. But every player in our starting 5 have some drawbacks at this point in their careers. Westbrook is turnover prone, and can get into the score first without passing mentality. He doesn't finish well at the rim. Eventually, he'll get there. At some point he'll have to be an offensive threat. He's actually shooting 3's pretty well this year, and we need him to continue with that. Nothing spreads a defense better than all 5 guys having to guard against the 3 ball. Westbrook has to be able to drive and finish at the rim. If all offense he started was generated by a pass first, then it's too predictable to defend. If the defender knows that Russell can and will take it to the hole if given the chance, then he has to respect that. It's not that Russell needs to stop doing what he's doing, it's that he needs to have success with it. We need to allow him the chance to get good at it. He's already better in many areas this year than last year. He'll get there. Just remind yourself of the company he's in with his averages across the board.

For that matter, KD is still turnover prone. He defense is better, his rebounding is better, and you don't see him force shots against a double team nearly as much this year. But he still has lapses sometimes. Green disappears some games, and can't find a way to compete on the boards with bigger 4's. He has defensive lapses at times. Krstic isn't an athlete, and when his shot isn't falling, he can't offer much. Thabo is an outstanding defender and hustle guy, but he can be a detriment on the offensive end of the floor. The defense sometimes doesn't even try to guard him, often just paying him lip service, and the lag on him when he's at the arc is incredible. It's often costly.

So just remember that everyone on the team has strengths and weaknesses. It isn't fair to pin it all on Westbrook. He does more positive things than we give him credit for. He was the only player outside of Serge that had any fire or passion against the Lakers the other night. He's not afraid of anyone or anything or any situation. He never plays scared. He never seems intimidated. You gotta love that attitude.

We may be over .500, but we're still young, we still have 3 and 4 more years to get better as a team and as individual players. Let the growth continue. It's on the right track.

If you do let Westbrook "rip" then a guy like Harden appears to be an important balancer on assists and low turnover Bigs help on that part. The relative high turnovers of Durant and Green and relatively low assists both sorta hurt the cause.
Maybe you shake up something. If is not Westbrook then something else.

@Crow
Yeah, but unfortunately I bet Tyshawn turns it around since it's so early and he just has a ton of talent despite his youth. But I'd love to snag him in the second round, that's for sure.

@ATR
Alabi is basically a further developed and more offensively polished Hasheem Thabeet, and I mean that in the shot-blocking, rebounding, terror down low way and not the "looks like a huge bust" way.

If Alabi's offensive game continues to improve as it has and he continues running well, blocking shots and snagging rebounds (though he could improve this as well), he'd be really, really tough to pass on between the 8-12 range if that's where the Thunder end up picking.

Also, with the second pick the Thunder have, I'm all for them drafting 6'1 PG Tyshawn Taylor out of Kansas. He has many of the same strengths as Westbrook and would be a lift off the bench (though Weaver did look great tonight).

I guess Taylor is off to a rough start but maybe that is a plus in the grand scheme of getting him if he is the right kind of guy in the end.

Actually, the erections comments were popular by several posters tonight. I'm not that impressed.

Lawson would have been awesome, I was in favor, but they would have had to trade up. Did they try? Don't know.

Might want Tyshawn Taylor is this draft but again might have to trade up to get him.

@Crow
I definitely like what Alabi could become if he develops, so I've definitely kept an eye on him. Nice memory!

@The DON

If I could pester you for just a minute to hear me out. I realize you have a posting style going for you. I realize you're on the new side when it comes to the regulars commenting on this site. I realize that you feel that your observations are legitimate and valid. I'm not here to criticize your observations. I know that you choose to communicate them through a negative reaction and exaggeration. I just wanted to say that when you get negative feedback from us, it isn't so much that we feel that you're wrong in your assessment, but it's the way you communicate it that the majority objects to.

If you want to be taken seriously, try constructive criticism. This place is a good community, and you have, at times, taken the liberty to dominate it, and that spoils a good time for a guy like myself.

So, instead of this...
I’m sorry, I cannot stand the thought of westbrook as our future PG. He can not be our future at that position!

With as well as Harden was playing in the 1st half, bring him in and let him run the offense to close the game out before it’s too late. I am telling you, westbrook is in that mode now where he is just literally about to completely have us collapse and blow this game. Get him the F off the court Brooks

Try this...
Westbrook is in danger of blowing this game. Get it together Russell! Prove that you belong on the court!

That way, when Russell ends up 8-10 at the free throw line, with several clutch makes at the end of the game when no one could hit a thing all of a sudden, your comments come out positive and deserve positive feedback. You're basically saying the same thing, but only from a positive point of view. It's much easier to read, much more pleasant, much more level headed.

As far as that goes, comments about erections belong in the drivel that is ESPN conversations. I know that's not just my opinion.

J.G. like Alabi if I remember correctly.

Food for further thought

Westbrook career (rounding off)

TurnoverLevel FGA rawFG% AST TOV PTS W-L
5+ 13 43 7 6 17 10-13
3-4 15 40 5 3.5 17 7-31
2 or less 12 37 5.5 1.5 12.5 13-22

I guess this suggests let him go. The middle ground on turnovers is the worst. Most controlled is 2nd best.

I think we need to look at Brooks system. He purposefully picks guys who don't fit the typical mold. Guys who can play up to three positions. I don't know if you can follow the same rules when judging this teams play as you can with a typical basketball team. Westbrook plays the point but will play the two or guard the two on d. In turn you should judge Westbrooks play based on a mixture of the two positions. You can't judge him off the stats that a Chris Paul type pg would put up. The same goes for Durant. He plays the 2-3-4 you can't say he needs 10 rebounds a game because he plays the four at times. And likewise you can't expect him to put up tons of assists because he isn't a two guard.

Hey everyone! Actually got to watch the game tonight since it was on NBATV! Great to get to see a win and can't wait for Friday! Thought Ibaka looked good and somewhat bulkier than when I last saw him, which has been awhile. Weaver is just steady and works hard. He has always and I think always will be more of a glue guy than a star. He can make the stars around him better.

I always like to look forward to how to help the team in the future. Who do you guys like in the draft where we are projected. I know it is early, but it is fun to see how it unfolds. One site has us taking Alabi. Anyone get to see him play yet? I haven't, but wonder what he looks like. 7'1" Might fill a need. Others I like, even in the second are Pittman and Onoaku as big bodies.

Another idea is someone like Ty Lawson. He has made a huge difference for Denver. Can we find someone like him later in the draft with the Sun's pick? Late points have been productive like George Hill, or even Beubois?

@Crow
It's certainly a fine line, and it depends greatly on the player's personality. I like what I've seen out of the team as a whole thus far (besides the up and down play), so Brooks must be doing something right. Westbrook and Durant learning together could be a help. Both could us a lot more PG in their games, even with KD dropping assists left and right today.

Westbrook seems like a perfect player to get going by running a lot of set plays. When he's playing confident, every facet of his game looks better (I don't have stats, but there is a definite difference in his game). Perhaps running more plays where he simply knows where everyone is setting up, as opposed to trusting his vision (which admittedly is not his greatest attribute), could help that confidence for the rest of the game. Then again, it's been noted even during his good games that he can get rattled when the pressure is on (late game). I think Brooks could be more judicious with his timeouts here, and look to draw up something and get everybody on the same page even when we are ahead.

I don't have an immediate opinion Keith.

It is probably tough to fine-tune Westy and you could mess him up if it got too controlling. But its Brooks job to fine-tune him, eventually.

@Crow@f5alcon

Great stuff guys. But as you pointed out, what is the next step. We know he can get out of control at times, but it looks like the majority of his turnovers are imprecise or ill-advised passes. Do you think Brooks purposely tries pushing his scoring up (which may lead to more out of control play) or tries a more concerted approach - something to the effect of forcing the team to run more set plays?

Before tonight, Westbrook turnover breakout:

Offensive Fouls 10

Bad Passes 27

Ball Handling Turnovers 15

2 of the 4 times Westbrook was held to 3 or less assists it was by a to 8 defense.

5 of the 7 times he had 5+ turnovers it was against a top 17 defense.

Part of the issue is the defense is probably emphasizing attacking this pressure point. But h's got to deal with it and beat it.

Crow :
f5alcon’s stat raises a question- while everybody is for converting turnovers into assists are there places where Westbrook could reduce turnovers by instead of forcing a pass he takes or manufactures a shot? In most cases probably not. But maybe some places?

I agree,
What id want to see is the breakdown of his turnovers, are they bad passes, poor ball handling or offensive fouls, then we can have a better idea of ones where he could have made a different choice. I think we would find some times when he forced it inside and some where he made a pass he shouldnt have, in some ways he would be better if he took one or 2 more jump shots instead of driving to the basket or making the bad pass

Maybe part of it is guys aren't coming to the ball well enough.

The types of turnovers are important too. Two turnovers by Russ tonight were suspect offensive foul calls. A third was where he got "stripped" by Boozer, when in reality Boozer had his forearm in a vice grip. There is a reason you need to watch the game to understand the stats. I'm not blaming the refs or saying they suck.. Obviously, since we won. However three turnovers were due to poor officiating. You can't blame Russ for those I don't think.

Real limited minutes but Weaver's turnovers per minute are now up and not that much lower than Westbrook's. Above KD's.

Ibaka 21 minutes no turnovers is worth noting. Real early but it is nice that turnovers is not one of his issues right now.

Hey, Weaver started a couple times for us last year, so if he can take over as a reserve it will allow us to keep our foot on the oppositions neck when the reserves check in.

Man, the Thunder are light years ahead of where they were last year. Let's take a moment to give it up to them for beating Utah in SLC where they only lost 8 times last year and were previously on a 3 game winning streak!

Westbrook could limit his turnovers by playing smarter and slowing the game down. Lots of his turnovers are unforced, just trying to do too much or not really thinking it through. I equate it to a wide receiver looking down field for space to run and not hanging onto a pass. Westbrook just seems to have tunnell vision sometimes.

Like tonight he had a double dribble. Never seen a PG have more double dribbles. And the offensive fouls, those could definitely be avoided.

I think Weaver-Harden was +4 in about 13 minutes. They gave it a nice look and it did well.

@Zach
He didn't seem to be hiding or apprehensive about anything. Think you're reading alot into someone answering a question right without any hesitation. Boy we're insecure as a fan base.

f5alcon's stat raises a question- while everybody is for converting turnovers into assists are there places where Westbrook could reduce turnovers by instead of forcing a pass he takes or manufactures a shot? In most cases probably not. But maybe some places?

I really think that down the road if James Harden supplants Thabo Sefolosha, it would really help out Russell Westbrook. If you think about it, he's really the only 'capable' ball handler on the court. Our guys made some nice passes in this one but generally I'd say our starting lineup from SG->C are average passers at best.

Fantastic win. Five road wins, we have a legitimate shot at .500 or better for November which is amazing.

That offensive flurry in the 3rd was great to see, excellent ball movement and hitting open looks.

I'm not too concerned with Russell Westbrook's play here.. he turned the ball over five times but most of them were at the end when the whole team started getting a bit herky jerky. The team is young and gets a little too excited.

I continue to be concerned with Jeff Green, though. If Kev is going to do his defensive review I can't imagine he'd be a + on this one. Seven three pointers? Really? I know he was hitting them early but c'mon. This is supposed to be our starting PF to compliment our star perimeter player, he doesn't need to be shooting threes constantly. Not really liking all these jumper attempts from Green.

Other than that, great bench effort! Young guys stepping up and looking good. Don't think Serge is ready to supplant Collison, but Weaver looked fantastic out there, especially on defense. If he's hitting threes and playing defense I think Kevin Ollie's job might be in trouble.

Thanks Royce. Glad I struck the right balance.

Thanks also to The Don.

Just adding what I can.

But like Blake and Durantula say there will be growing pains. Brooks, Cheeks and Westbrook will work on it.

Still if you want / need to balance the turnovers with Westbrook on the court you could look at the other position choices to see if it might help. Harden is a bit lower than Sefolosha, Collison is a bit above Krstic. White is way way lower than Green but he might not ready for it and the coaching staff isn't. It is just one factor though and might not change Westbrook. If you made any of these changes it would have to be for more than just this one reason.

Awesome stat Mr. Falcon!

oh my god, that brian davis quote makes me laugh harder every time i hear it. What a moron, hahahahahahah.

Do you guys think Kevin was a bit apprehensive and hiding the truth when C. Webb asks Durant where he is going to go after free agency? NBA interview here; http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2009/11/2...

I think Crow is right in pointing this out... and I believe that it shows RW's evolution as a player. He is both able to control a game and go completely insane on us and I know that he will work every day to be consistently play well.

PGs that shoot more then pass, based on shot attempts to assists, lower is better in this case: Russell westbrook 1.91 FGA/assists, more then him, brandon jennings 3.45, gilbert arenas 3.06, mo williams 3.00, aaron brooks 2.43, chauncey billups 2.01, derrick rose 2.61, will bynum 2.5, beno udrih 2.78, tony parker 2.4, devin harris 2.01, jameer nelson 2.05, jonny flynn 3.45, mike bibby 2.1, tj ford 3.26, So 14 starting PGs take more attempts then assists then westbrook. only 1 averaged more assists then attempts, jason kidd.