Daily Thunder.com

Crow :

Anonymous :has a + .500 team ever had a better road than home record?

In the last 5 years the 06-07 Pistons and 07-08 Magic did it. Several others have been equal including the 2004-5 Sonics when they won 52.

Well done, Crow. I knew I could count on you!

OKC 5-2 against east / 4-7 against west. They play 52 against the west eventually.

The least home wins of a team at or over .500 overall was 22 during this timeframe.

Anonymous :
has a + .500 team ever had a better road than home record?

In the last 5 years the 06-07 Pistons and 07-08 Magic did it. Several others have been equal including the 2004-5 Sonics when they won 52.

@J.G.
Oh, and about the confirmation bias thing. I have to say, if a player is going to be "one of only" in any kind of list that involves aspects of the game that signals a player contributing to wins produced, then doesn't the player's status in that list, whether contrived or not, lend merit to the fact that they are a special player?

Nowitzki, Gasol, CP3, Stephen Jackson...those are special players. As long as the bar is not lowered in such a way as to include anyone, then by the very nature of statistics, the exclusion of all players "below" the "one of only's" signals that they are "better than most" players across the board. Doesn't it, by the very nature of statistics?

@justin
I actually think you're two "Did you know" actually say a lot about Green and Westbrook, even with the confirmation bias in tact. Haha!

And I'm with you on the +/- normalization aspect, but you said ANY +/-. :) I mean come on, you know I had to nit pick you on that one!

Plus I still think your "certainly have their growing pains" comment sums up our different views on Green: I still believe he is in the midst of learning how to play as a PF since he played his ENTIRE rookie season as a SF and the first 13 games of his sophomore season (95 games; not to mention high school and college games at SF) versus playing at the PF for 69 games during his sophomore season and now 17 games into his third year (86 games).

Pretty much, he's Russell Westbrook's transitioning to PG from SG through high school and college, only as a PF at the NBA level. But RW's transition is considered and somewhat justified, whereas Green's is not. Do you see what I mean?

@J.G.

Jeff Green is way below average with assists, and has been his whole career. He's 32nd among qualifying PF's for assists per 48 minutes. He's 9th in turnovers.

He is above average at free throw shooting and three point percentage.

You don't parse +/- data that way. It's called +/- because you look at what's happening when the player is on the court and when he is off. The data is meaningless if you're only looking at wins because obviously if you're a starter playing 70%+ total available minutes you're probably going to end up with a nice figure there.

Jeff Green is currently -17.9 points per 100 possessions. This means that for every 100 possessions that he is in the game, the other team is scoring almost 18 more points than us. That's really bad, and does suggest that the team is better when he is not on the court. His other statistics would also demonstrate that, as he is below average in most categories relative to other NBA power forwards.

Also, as a minor note, even if you accept the bias of your +/- interpretation, you cannot average the results as you have done before normalizing the minutes played.

The main reason the Thunder have a winning record this year is Kevin Durant, and to a lesser extent Thabo Sefolosha, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden. Those players are doing a lot of things well, certainly have their growing pains and whatnot, but generally perform well relative to their position(s) in several key categories.

The 'one of nine players' thing is a popular device used to fit any player into some other group that makes them look good. If the reporter wants to make a player look good, he'll find a few criteria and baselines where he's grouped with some good company. One of the criteria is always something like steals or blocks, because you can really make the data fuzzy. As an example, if I lower the assist and steal criteria by .5 we get a list of 22 players. If I add a critera of 1 BPG, Jeff Green vanishes off the list. Obviously, the impact of .5 assits, .5 steals, or .5 blocks (what Jeff Green would need to get 1 block per game last year) isn't that big a deal.

Did you know Jeff Green was one of three players last year (Nowitzki, Gasol) to average more than 16 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, shoot more than 35% from three point range, and turn the ball over less than 2.5 times?

Did you know Russell Westbrook was one of three players (Chris Paul, Steven Jackson) to average more than 15 points, 5 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 1.3 steals, and 80% from the FT line last year?

Confirmation bias!

@J.G.
"didn't have a losing HOME record prior to the Bucks game" - edit

@Anonymous
The Thunder didn't have a losing record prior to the Bucks game. They were 3-3 at the time you say that question would have taken place.

Try again?

@justin
Below average at everything except 3 pt shooting? Did we not check steals, assists, free throw shooting, etc?

And I'm definitely with you on offensive efficiency, but to say he's not benefiting the team when he's out there is just crazy. Through the first five games, Jeff Green was doing more for the team than almost any other player across the board because not everything a player does to contribute to a victory can be seen in a box score.

And regarding his +/-'s, I think you should take a look at his results in each of the Thunder's victories: +19 (Sacramento), +5 (Detroit, the highest + of the starter's that game), +15 (Orlando), +7 (Clippers, only starter in the + category), -9 (San Antonio), -1 (Miami), +17 (Washington), +17 (Utah), +24 (Milwaukee). For a combined average of +10.44 in each of the Thunder's wins this season.

But yeah, he's not contributing at all and not benefiting the team in ANY of the +/- numbers people can choose to look at.

Not only is your assertion that the Thunder "generally play worse when Jeff Green is on the court" completely the OPPOSITE, but he's actually one of the main reasons the Thunder have a winning record this year (if we're going to go off of +/-, no matter how much I dislike the statistic itself).

Oh, and the "one of nine players" didn't come from me, it came from Darnell Mayberry and the rest of the Associated Press that covers the NBA: http://newsok.com/jeff-green-is-the-thunder-forwar...

@J.G.

Sorry J.G., Jeff Green has been below average in several categories this season.

Jeff Green is averaging 8.5 rebounds per 48 minutes, which ranks him FORTY SEVENTH in the NBA among power forwards on pace to play 70 games or grab 800 rebounds.

Jeff Green is 19th among 32 qualifying PF's in Points Per Shot, a decent measure of offensive efficiency, and 23rd in Adjusted FG%.

Jeff Green is 32nd among qualifying PF's (on pace to play 70 games, and 400 assists) in assists per 48 minutes at 2.1. He's 9th among PF's in turnovers per game.

The real sticking point here to me is his offensive efficiency. It should be high. He should be exploiting the matchups on the offensive end, hitting three pointers, getting easy looks using his 'superior athleticism' at the position. He's not doing this.

Jeff Green is below average at everything for his position except 3pt shooting, and that's plummeting every game (10 for his last 43 I believe). He's not really benefitting the team while he's out there and this is also reflected in any of the +/- numbers you choose to look at. The Thunder have generally played worse when Jeff Green is on the court.

As for that 'one of nine players to do this, this, and this' thing.. let's stay within the bounds of reality here. Talk about confirmation bias!

@Anonymous
Link it. :)

@Anonymous
"Scott Brooks made a comment about how the players need to use the home crowd effectively, but not depend it. That is a clear signal that this is actually a problem."

Um, no. Faulty logic. That actually means the exact OPPOSITE of what you're saying.

Brooks told them not to rely on the home crowd because the crowd is such a huge source of excitment and energy for the players. When the Thunder is on the road or is blowing out an opponent at home, the energy waned in the players and that got the team into trouble quite often and the crowd would be the ones to pump them back up. Hence why Brooks told them that they can't rely on the home crowd.

Nice try though.

Anonymous :Yah I saw the Buck’s game. They are raucous as long as the Thunder are firmly in control.
Any whiff of adversity and fear grips the place. And it effects these young players.
Scott Brooks made a comment about how the players need to use the home crowd effectively, but not depend it. That is a clear signal that this is actually a problem.
Has there ever been a +.500 team with a losing home record that have gone deep in the playoffs?

Like I said, I'm not doing that research. Knock yourself out. But it wouldn't surprise me. And I also don't expect this year's team to A) Have a losing home record or B) Make the playoffs, so...

And, again, I can't even name how many times the Ford Center has basically cheered the Thunder during a rough stretch to get them back into the game (and news flash, most crowds go quiet when adversity hits). But unlike those crowds, there's a reason the Ford Center is known as one of the best home crowds in the league. Shoot, the Thunder's crowd even spurred the Thunder to two wins that way last year when adversity struck: Toronto and Memphis in OT.

So like I said, unless you've actually been in the Ford Center for a Thunder game, you're point is completely invalid.

@Anonymous
Oh, and just wait for the Rockets to host the Cavs on Dec. 9th.

They'll almost definitely bet a +.500 team after their road trip (@LAC, @GS, @POR - so 2-1 for a record of 11-9), so unless they beat the Cavs in Houston, they'll be 11-10 with a losing record at home (4-5).

Now if you meant for an entire season...I'm not doing that kind of research, so feel free.

@Anonymous
Of course there has been. The league's been around a long time.

And I can only assume that you're bashing on the OKC crowd because you have some sort of agenda against OKC.

The Ford Center crowd is actually one of the few that DON'T need a soundtrack to cue them for when to cheer (Cleveland, LA, pretty much most teams). If you'd ever been to a game in OKC, you'd know that. It's just a little hard to get loud and rowdy when your team goes on an awful stretch like the Thunder did today.

You not catch Friday night's game against the Bucks, did you?

@justin
I'd say the "One of only nine players" statistic is why most people sing his praises.

And if we're going with "what do they do better than other players at their position with Thabo, Westbrook and Durant, than Thabo's going to have a LOOOOOONG day at the office since shooting is, you know, the primary role of a shooting guard.

Yes, I love that Thabo rebounds, blocks and can play lock down defense, but I also can't stand the fact that he becomes almost irrelevant on the other end of the court or when the other team doesn't really have an elite scorere on their team (GLARING PROBLEM). Westbrook's turnovers is one of the worst in the league at his position (GLARING PROBLEM). Ditto for Durant (GLARING PROBLEM). Green's rebounding and offensive efficiency is slightly below average for his position (a problem, but definitely not a glaring issue since he does still rebound close to the average).

That is why everyone is so high on Green: he doesn't really do anything great BUT he also doesn't do anything horribly either. He's as good as some but better than most when it comes to an all-around game at the forward position (either/or). He's a better three point shooter, a better passer (which is a vastly underrated category), a better stealer, and a MUCH better teammate than a lot of PF's in the league. Again, it's the all-around game.

Now if you want to have a discussion on how his post defense needs improvement...well I'm all ears. If you want to discuss him coming off the bench as a sixth man in the future at SF and rotating in for a bit at PF, I'm in.

@justin
Er. I think he's just having a bad start to the season. He had improved very well last and I'm sure will improve by 2nd half so I don't think we can draw any conclusions yet.

And, Green came up with some big time rebounds during the game today but it just wasn't bouncing our way most of the time. They were driving to the basket, we would attempt a block, open player would then clean it up. Simple as that and can't be blamed on Green. But, we can blame Green and the rest of the team for not attacking the rim the 2nd half. We took too many outside shots (they were open, but we just didn't have the stuff to make them tonight) and didn't have any bodies down low to get the offensive rebound. We'll get 'em next time.

@J.G.

I don't 'wipe away' the problems of our other players, I'm a fairly critical fan, that just happens to be the way I choose to enjoy the NBA.

The difference between Thabo, Westbrook, Durant, and Green is that the first three actually perform well in many phases of the game relative to other starters at their position. Thabo is a fantastic, almost lockdown defender who can take multiple positions. Westbrook, as I stated, is top ten in scoring for PG, top ten in scoring efficiency for PG, top 10 in assists, and has posted many improvements in other areas. Kevin Durant is top five scorer in the league. Jeff Green is supposed to be this hybrid forward who can stretch the defense and use his athleticism to get high percentage shots on offense (against other, presumably slower, power forwards). This isn't happening, though. Jeff Green is not efficient scoring the ball and doesn't really do anything well relative to other starters at his position.

What are Jeff Green's positives? What does he do better than the average NBA starting power forward? Steals, perhaps, barely. He doesn't shoot better, defend better, rebound better. Maybe shoot the three better? I really don't know. I don't dislike the guy, I think he'd be an excellent player if he was playing his correct position. I just don't see what he's doing so well that has people singing his praises.

We weren't posting because we were at the game. I don't think I like gaining more fans because you gather some dumbasses along the way.

@justin
Fair enough. But here's the part that bothers me about all of this:

Westbrook is a turnover machine who goes through stretches where he forgets he's a point guard who is supposed to initiate an offense and get his teammates involved. Thabo is one of the biggest offensive liabilities at shooting guard in the league. Durant is not only a turnover machine, but consistently drives to the basket without any idea about what he's going to do with the ball if his penetration is stopped. Harden goes through stretches where he simply does not attack or become agressive at all, and thereby disappears from the game.

But because they all rebound above average, all of that is wiped away? But since Jeff Green rebounds below average for his position, we should heap burning coals on him?

Unless you're just a person obsessed with rebounding, I don't get it. I really don't. Especially when you consider this little gem:

Jeff Green was one of only nine NBA players who averaged at least 16 points, six rebounds, two assists and one steal last season.

The others? LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Caron Butler, LaMarcus Aldridge, Gerald Wallace and Carlos Boozer. Five of that group were are All-Stars.

Like I said, I have no problem with you pointing out Green's deficiencies, but the fact that you completely overlook the other players' GLARING deficiencies and list only their positives, while absolutely disregarding Green's positives and focusing almost entirely on his lack of rebounding...it just seems like a step needs to be taken back to get a wider perspective on the matter.

And the funny thing is, I actually agree with you about the rebounding needing to improve. But past that, and I think you just lose track of how valuable a commodity Green really is.

@J.G.

Everyone else on the Thunder are above average rebounders relative to their starting position aside from Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic. Russell Westbrook and Thabo Sefolosha are above average for PG and SG respectively. Kevin Durant is above average for a starting SF. Nenad Krstic is what he is, I don't bring up his problem rebounding because he's not a long term piece and probably doesn't fit into the equation beyond a bench role after this season.

Jeff Green is repeatedly touted as the starting PF of the future for this team. He's way below average as a rebounder relative to other starting power forwards. Certainly, the presence of another weak rebounder at the center position exacerbates the problem, and it's for those reasons I don't see anyone claiming Nenad Krstic as the center of the future.

If you don't believe me, check it out yourself. Take a look at TRB% and RB/48 for Westbrook, Sefolosha, Durant, Harden, and Green and compare them with other starters at their respective positions. Compare Jeff Green's length (8'7") with other starting power forwards. Compare his offensive efficiency and general productivity with other starting power forwards. He's below average in all respects. If Jeff Green were an efficient scorer like Andrea Bargnani then perhaps his lack of prototypical defense and rebounding could be excused. But he's not been efficient offensively. So that's my problem.

@justin
EVERYONE got killed on the boards tonight; just one of those nights.

You and I've argued over Green's "lack of length" before (he's got exceptional wingspan but slightly sub-par standing reach, hence our disagreement) but the problem is that you DO excuse almost every other person's rebounding issues from game to game except Green's.

I'm not sure if you've got an axe to grind with him or not, but honestly, every single game is just getting tiresome to have to read over and over and over again.

I've not seen one post from you regarding Krstic's HORRENDOUS rebounding numbers for a center. Or the fact that his wingspan and standing reach are also sub-par...so what gives?

Side note: The offense was bad the instant the second half started. Stagnant, poor movement, even poorer execution...and I have no idea where Harden and DJ White were when the Thunder so clearly needed buckets.

Anonymous :
Thunder suck…

Leave and never return to this site or as god is my witness i will viciously bite your left ankle while tickling the back of your right knee with an eagle feather

i am with Dylan... what people have to realize is that were still extremely young and going to have these games. its a process and the players and the organization realize it. now its time for some of you fans to realize it. take a step back from the ledge people. were gonna be all right.

@Anonymous
Well I've got to post now! I don't want anyone thinking that's true about me!

Seriously, there's not a lot to say that hasn't been said yet. We didn't rebound. We were missing two of our main rotation big men, and that hurt us. Uh... I mean, that's really all there is to it.

Being over 500. is still better then under 500.

@Anonymous

This team is going to lose 40 games this year, so there will be some clunkers like this along the way.

Why would they fire a coach for being over 500.

They got 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th second chance shots. There was no hustle
on rebounds tonight.

Offensive rebounds killed us, but not hitting the 3 also killed us. It's hard to win a game at 1-15 on the 3.

er.. don't think RW was bad :)

I don't think RW wasn't bad this game. The offense was decent most of the time, and he's been shooting the ball pretty well the last few.

@The DON is SO hot right now

Westbrook is shooting 35% from 3
Durant is shooting 25% from 3

Westbrook also had a hot hand... thats why Durant passed to it him when he got the offensive rebound late in the game... quit letting your hate for westbrook affect the way you react to everything... if he hits the 3 then you wanna S his D... if he misses it then you want to kill him... you gotta learn how to control your emotions like you PROMISED a couple games earlier.

what a disgraceful effort on the glass by everyone. they should be ashamed of themselves.

The thunder needs to bring in a three point shooter along with that center.

Why have these goddammed refs absolutely refused to call fouls against KD? He has been getting hacked all night but they refused to blow the whistle

The whole team has not sucked. We are shooting 48.9% from the field and have 17 assists to 34 made field goals. The offense has been pretty good aside from some turnovers and questionable late game decision making.

The difference in the game is obviously the rebounding, Houston has attempted 23 more shot attempts than us and there's little chance you can win a game with that kind of disadvantage. 16 of Houston's 23 offensive rebounds were taken by their front line. I think it's clear that the problem this game was the front line's inability to block out and secure defensive rebounds. They were out of position often, and out hustled often. I'm singling out Jeff Green here because he's been a problem in this respect since last season, was a problem in this respect last game against Houston, and is supposed to be our power forward of the future. Sure our centers stunk and our starting forwards were tired at the end playing so many minutes. Doesn't excuse Jeff Green's deficiencies at the PF position, tho.

No rebounds no rings is what Pat Riley used to say.

I don't know what the points in the paint breakdown is, but I guarantee it's not even remotely in our favor.

@clarkem
That is the kind of thing I just laugh about. That would happen on a night like this.

@grant phillips

1) he is not shooting well from 3....his entire career
2) KD is hot, and he refuses to look for him. KD should be shooting that 3, not Westbrook. There was no need for him to rush that shot
3) wow, ibaka just hit a 3

Ibaka for threeeeeeeee

94 shots to 72 for OKC, that's the difference

No heart at all by our players, sad

Thabo's jumper makes me cringe

@The DON is SO hot right now

1. he is shooting well
2. he was open
3. we needed a 3 pointer

i have no problem with him taking that...

The whole team ended this game very poorly, and barring a major turn around this is a bad loss. I hate to see this for this team who had something great going for them.
Now my kind nature is just hoping tonight and tomorrow doesn't turn into a blame game.

F***!!!!!!!! Westbrook, why, WHY???? Just brings the ball up and jacks up a 3 without a single pass

@justin
Haha this has turned into an all out war, when it started with debating that he shouldn't be getting blasted for poor rebounding this game when the whole team has sucked. It's safe to say that you and I probably will never agree completely on Green.