Daily Thunder.com

Thanks Kev.

If some of them are interesting to some of the readers then I am satisfied.

thanks for all the great stats Crow . . .

Stray note: Last season the Thunder was moderately above average on performance consistency on the road and moderately below at home. This season they are among the very highest for consistency at home and near the bottom for consistency on the road.

Compared to league average 50% eFG% a guy taking 14 shots a game and hitting 44% (if it is eFG%, accounting for the added value of 3s and not just raw FG%) has "cost" his team almost 2 points compared to average shooting. A guy shooting 37% has cost his team about 4 points.

last word...

justin :
Here’s something interesting.
We’ve had five wins five losses this year. In the five wins Russell Westbrook is 37.3% from the field attempting 11.8 shots a game, 12.4 points and 9.4 assists.
In the five losses Russell Westbrook is 44.3% from the field attempting 15.8 shots a game, 18.8 points and 5.8 assists.
Very small sample but it’ll be interesting seeing how this progresses. So far the team is much better served by Russell Westbrook shooting less (even if he’s shooting poorly).

Interesting observation. I can't imagine that any team is ever hurt by letting someone shoot at 44 percent. We know that in the last two losses, the teams FG% was well below that. So that stat might be of an indicator of RW picking up the slack on a rough night.... kinda like high crime stats came sometimes be nothing more than an indicator of a greater law enforcement presence.

Last season I'd estimate looking quickly at the stats that Westbrook had about 30% good shooting games, 20% just ok and about 50% bad.

So in 10 games this season he is at 40% good shooting games, 20% just ok and about 40% bad.

So far an improvement.

That is interesting justin.

I was going to check his first 5 games vs the next five but hadn't got around to it previously.

By total assists and shots he is about the same. By FG% he went from 3 good nights, 1 just ok, 1 bad in the first 5 to 1 good night, 1 just ok, 3 bad in next 5.

Harden in the starting lineup would probably reduce Westbrook shots directly and by passing more so to others.

On the Celtice Rondo is the 4th or 5th option.
On the 6ers Williams is essentially in a 3 way tie for options 2,3,4.
On the Rockets Lowry is about next to last in the main rotation.

Westbrook probably should be in a situation like Williams rather than the clear #2 by usage. At most. Maybe more like Rondo if you went by the numbers.

Here's something interesting.

We've had five wins five losses this year. In the five wins Russell Westbrook is 37.3% from the field attempting 11.8 shots a game, 12.4 points and 9.4 assists.

In the five losses Russell Westbrook is 44.3% from the field attempting 15.8 shots a game, 18.8 points and 5.8 assists.

Very small sample but it'll be interesting seeing how this progresses. So far the team is much better served by Russell Westbrook shooting less (even if he's shooting poorly).

Comparing Westbrook to Lowry, L Williams, Rondo right now:

Westbrook is the least accomplished shooter by a clear margin

Is only slightly behind Rondo at handing out assists.

Is actually second best on turnover rate but all 3 of the other guys are nearly double what L Williams has going right now.

Has by far the highest usage.

Is tied with Rondo on total rebound rate.

Is actually last in steals rate.

On PER right now he is 3rd of 4.

@Mark!
On the Westbrook post I agree completely... the jury is out but the potential is certainly there. Which is why I said "nay" to the CP3 trade promoters last week... for reasons I won't restate.

@Royce
I still think Traber is posting on here as The DON... I just do. I mean the Pelosi rant, the Westbrook hating, you have to admit it's at least plausible.

Lowry, L Williams, Rondo had 2 years headstart.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rose, Westbrook, and T Evans are in the same spectrum in 2 years. Maybe they go above in scoring but Rondo is 20.6 on PER right now, Williams 18.9, Lowry 15.0.

Other recent guys that Westbrook may get compared to: Johnny Flynn and Conley, with Conley looking by far the worst right now.

A third of guys ahead of Westbrook at age 20 cracked up eventually, disappointing the team that gave them the big deal after the rookie contract. The disappointments were generally the score -first, non pure PGs.

Rose, Westbrook, and T Evans all started about the same. Where will they rank relative to each other in 2-3 years?
Hard question for me.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tin...

I'd say Westbrook stats are generally a pretty tight fit with last season but there are differences:

2 more assists and shooting a bit better, especially inside and from 3.

Taking the same amount of shots. Not relegating himself to 3rd option.

Less steals, less free throws, more fouls committed. Less offensive rebounds, more defensive rebounds.

Overall he has a better PER.

Last season at age 20 his PER was 15th best for guards for the time period (almost 30 years) DSMok1 selected.

Who is #1? Not Paul, it is Brandon Jennings. I knew nothing I could trust about him. But GMs should. Or least the best ones.

Maybe his flaws come out with time.

It isn't always a straight path up.

@Royce

I think he quoted my tweet verbatim. I guess I'm your clone now. Which is odd because you are a Bill Simmons clone. Right?

@Mark! RW is not CP3. That is the short answer. IMHO

@Mark!
The problem is that your post will make too much sense to some, and no sense to others. Haha.

Basically, to answer your question, too many people have no patience and can't comprehend that rookies and sophomores take time to develop and progress.

Honestly, that's the only thing I can come up with about the RW hate.

@Mark!

Smartest thing I've read on here all day.

Sorry Royce ;)

@Mark!

Well done sir.

If you've been around the NBA blogsphere, you'll see commenters post similar sentiments about their veteran all stars. Just wonder over to 48 minutes of hell to read the Tony Parker hate from Saturday's loss. Even Pop, one of the better coaches around, is questioned and corrected by all the fans in the comments section.

Then wonder over to espn's conversations on the same game, and the fans there are worse. More cursing, more panic, less logic.

Then wonder over to realgm, which is the 4chan of NBA blogs, and read that drivel for a while.

Then come back here. If you haven't lost all faith in humanity by this point, you might realize that despite one or two posters, this community is on the reasonable side of things for the most part.

And if you do want to lose all faith in humanity, go read any message board devoted only to local college football.

Wear your sports fan badge with a bit of shame. Our greater demographic deserves nothing more.

@girlballer
Not to be petty, but I think this site actually does belong to Royce. :)

And to let you know, I've never met any of the posters here in person (not sure if any of us have met each other), which is one of the things I think is pretty special about this site; it honestly feels like a group of Thunder fans that hang out all the time together with some great discussion .

Mark, I think that comment is far too intelligent for this discussion. It's going to fly over a lot of heads.

I'm sure this comment will be lost in the shuffle, but can anyone explain to me why the Westbrook hate train carries so much weight/intensity? I understand that not everyone is an ardent opponent or apologist, but why would anyone care so much one way or the other at this point? It's too soon!

Even Westbrook's strongest supporters agree that there are better point guards in the league and that Westbrook's potential might never be realized. But he's certainly the best PG we have on our team, he has the potential to be something special, and he's far from being a cancer in the locker room from all accounts I've seen or heard.

What do his detractors want the Thunder to do? Waive the rest of his contract immediately? I suppose I shouldn't rule out the possibility of there being owners/GM's stupid enough to trade a proven stud PG for a PG with potential, but I doubt the Thunder would actually be able sell someone on Westbrook's potential in exchange for a top 5 talent at the same position (that also still has enough miles on his odometer to have some peak seasons alongside KD) without giving up something substantial. I fail to see how giving up anything with substance at this point helps out our bigger problem in the post.

The NBA is a business. You don't get anything for free, and you achieve the success by getting the most value out of your investments. Westbrook is on a good contract. $19.5M over the next 4 years (including this one) with $15.8M under discretion of team option. Westbrook is good enough to be on the floor, and many people paid to analyze the sport (both third party and within the NBA) think he has the potential to improve. So why not ride it out? Find some talent to play in the post while we let Russell get some experience, and if he still isn't panning out, then take what we can get for him and move on. Trying to force a move with him now will almost undoubtedly set us back. What's the rush?

Until then, wait and see what he can do. This sort of negative response to Westbrook is ludicrous; you'd think this was 2013 during Russell's 5th year without showing any improvement and Presti just signed him to a monster deal.

@Girlballer

Love TLO even though I may not always agree with them. Same thing with lots of the regulars here. The difference is that while I may not always agree with everyone here, I at least know that their reasoning isn't driven by a Clydesdale.

@Martz
You are going to offend all the TLO readers by bad-mouthing the midget strippers-FYI

Mr. Traber is after me again today. I think he has a crush on me.

@Royce
That was a perfect analogy. I tend to like our little alternative jazz club that we have here and stay away from the Night Trips that so many other blogs and message boards seem to be.

There has to be more to life than watered-down drinks, wet t-shirts and midget strippers.

I just did a (very brief) check of "DailyThunder" peers, and this site is way, WAY more active (by a factor of 10 at least!) in the comments department. While I very much enjoy Royce's "free flowing prose" in all it's often witty splendor, many of the other truehoops bloggers can be said to be at least NEARLY as talented. So why all the action over here? Are the companies of Oklahoma not regulating their in-office web browsing as effectively? (perhaps) but MY personal reason of choice is that we are SO FREAKIN EXCITED ABOUT THIS TEAM that we can't shut up about it for a bloomin' minute!

That is a great thing people, and if passions flare, heated debate is sure to follow. I would assume Royce does not just want the same 10 faithful readers (that he probably drinks beer and discusses sports in person with anyway....) visiting here everyday? And I love to get as riled up and indignant as the next fan, but this Thunder business is bigger than all of us now, and it doesn't belong to Royce, or Jax, or J.G, or Bryan or nick or Dizzy or EVEN Crow or the DON (who I swear sits next to me at the games.....)

Welcome the controversy people, it you only want to discuss basketball with your erudite, pithy, verbose friends, do it over drinks in your favorite bar (but invite ME of course!!) If you want to see what the whole wide web thinks, do it here.

**gets pushed off soapbox by office manager

I know its a little late, but I cant believe people were actually complaining about RW's defense against Baron when he made that 3. Russ and Baron play against each other basically every day during the summer, and both know each others games incredibly well. Everyone knows Baron isnt the greatest shooter in the world, but can create havoc when he puts the ball on the floor because of his combination of strength and quickness. Russell knows that that is Baron's game, and after recovering from the Kaman screen, he played off Baron protecting against the drive. Russ knows that it is advantage to protect against Baron driving and creating/getting fouled and force him to pull up and take a jump shot. Baron is a career 32% 3 point shooter, and Russ did get a hand in his face. The best case scenario for the Thunder is to force Baron to take a contested jump shot in that scenario, and that is exactly what happened.

@DizzyDai
Ultimately, every fan wants to see their team win. When the team does not, human nature is to find something to blame. When you look at the players and the national perspective (what the new or casual fan will see), you see Durant, Green, and Westbrook. Fans can't blame Durant because they are told he's the best thing this town has ever seen. Fans also have a hard time blaming Green because he's supposed to only be the sidekick, and for those who don't know the position, they see him shooting reasonably well and getting some rebounds. When a fan looks at Westbrook, they see turnovers and non-PG related things (rebounds, blocks). Westbrook also has the second most hype of any player on our team. When a fan sees our second best player, or so they are told, not play like a star, they assume losses are his fault. No one looks at Thabo or Harden's stinkers, or Green being able to play only 21 minutes. Westbrook is the second guy they look at after Durant, so everything he doesn't do is magnified.

This Westbrook hate is funny yet infuriating all the same. I also blog about the Thunder a little myself. When I was researching the team during last year's draft, I've seen several "Finding the next Westbrook" articles. If nationally, Westbrook is considered a gem of a discovery by Presti why is he vilified locally?

Those who rip Westbrook... Umm, he's one of the youngest starting PG's ever in the league. The aging curve of player progression typically follows actual age, not number of years in the league. So it is best to compare him to other players of the same age (there haven't been many). If he had stayed in college another couple of years, he would have emerged as a much better rookie--but not as good as he will have become by then for the Thunder.

He doesn't shoot splendidly, but on the other hand he's got time to develop that. Historically, shooting can certainly be improved with time; in fact, that increases throughout a players career (until athleticism decline starts to interfere). Players can also improve their passing skills and certainly vision.

The bottom line is that he is extremely young and should improve each year until about his age 27 season. If he had waited and turned pro after college, no one would have had an opportunity to criticize him as he learns the ropes--but he will be better because he learned in the NBA. Compare to the other guards of his age: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tin...

My Westbrook 2 cents...
Well this is actually just my pet peeve..and RW does it the most.
KD just made a huge play..whether it be a 3, an And1, or a dunk, Sefolosha came up with a steal, Thomas blocked a shot, or we played good team D to force a shot clock viol. Then RW dribbles past half court takes a dribble to the right then bricks one off the back of the rim. I would like to see how much more efficient the team is when we pass the ball 3+ times, then when we jack up a shot.

@Royce
Excellent analogy. And the "lovely, free-flowing prose" bit made me laugh.
I'll definitely still come to the bar. Some days I might just sit in the corner and grumble and the whippersnappers, haha.

@Bryan
I second that hope. And your point about the Thunder beating teams with effort and athleticism is dead on. With all the athletes on this team (most notably the lightning rod that is Westbrook), we can physically attack teams if the effort is there. Even very good teams like the Lakers and Spurs are affected by non stop effort from more athletic teams (a big reason why the Hawks gave the Celtics so much trouble two years ago). Without the effort ... we're just a group of developing players, and the aforementioned Westbrook is just an unpolished combo guard.

@nick
To stay off topic for a moment more, I'll say this:

One thing I really like is that a lot of people almost take ownership of this site. They feel like it's THEIR site to talk about their team. It's like YOUR bar where you go and hang with friends and talk sports and stuff. Except in this case, the beer is my lovely, free-flowing prose.

But at the same time, when things grow a bit, some people can get bothered by expansion. What was once "theirs" is now a lot of people's. It happens with bands all the time. My favorite band ever is Dave Matthews Band. Everyone used to love their new fusion style in the mid-90s because it was new and different. Not many knew about them and so the band was "theirs." Now it's cool to hate them and say things like, "Yeah, I don't like DMB anymore because their fans suck. They used to be cool before they got so big."

And I just hope that never happens here, in of course, a much, much smaller scale. Anyway, really, really appreciate all the involvement and I hope there is even more eventually. But at the same time, that scares me a bit.

Anyway, carry on.

@Bryan
Agreed on effort and athleticism, and I also thought he had turned a mini-corner (save for his shooting anywhere except behind the three point line). Oh well, like I've said for awhile, rookies and sophomores will almost always be inconsistent, here's hoping that Harden continues to develop.

@nick
Actually laughed out loud at that one.

@Bryan

It probally will lol.

and on a side note HOLY HECK ITS COLD!...err well compared to yesterday at least.

@nick
I was here all summer and became very attached to the quality and civility of discourse here. Let's hope that the Thunder's success doesn't kill it for us.

@J.G.
Rarely. But every now and again ... you're just wrong. Haha

@Royce
I'm definitely not running away, and I very much appreciate the effort that you put into both running this site and moderating it. And no, I don't think the discussion has crossed the line to the point where there is some disciplinary thing you can do about it, that's why I said I had no idea what you could do about it haha.
Perhaps I'm just like those old-timers reminiscing about "back in my day ...". Which is odd seeing as I'm 20, but whatever.

@J.G.
It's too bad. I really felt like Harden had been making progress over the last few games... then that performance.

If there is anything to be gleaned from last night's game, I think it's that the Thunder often overcome superior oponents with superior effort and athleticism. When that effort isn't there, they are a very vulnerable team.

@J.G.

*high fives*

@Thundercat

LOL

As for my take on Russ: we always knew he would be somewhat of a project. The fact that he has made significant strides is encouraging. And young point guards, especially ones that haven't played the position long, take time to mature. Chauncey Billups was given up on by the Celtics, Raptors, Nuggets, and Magic before he figured it out. Westbrook has all the potential in the world; and as Kev says, its up to him to put in the work to harness that potential. The most alarming thing to me is his lack of effort on the defensive end, and that facet of his game has yet to show any improvement. Its up to him, his teammates, and Coach Brooks to figure out how to make that part of his game a priority. Especially since he has the tools to be a dominant defender.

@nick
Well, as long as things stay civil and semi-intelligent, I have no problem with it all. People are going to have differing opinions and I'm not going to censor that.

But if it crosses either the line of sanity or vulgar/insulting then yeah, something will be done. I would hope nobody is upset with the discussion so much run away. I really value the discussion and debate that happens here and I want it to stay at a high level. If I feel it's slipping, I'll do something about it.

Bring back Earl Watson, then everyone will be happy.

@nick
Well said...but, nick, you actually disagreed with me? I'm hurt.

@The DON
Now that's an analysis I can get behind 100%. Well said regarding permanent fixtures and your concerns with both the center and point guard positions for the future, regardless of if I agree with it or not.

@justin
Agreed, especially when Thabo's offensive performances continue to decline (though Harden's shooting isn't really forcing him to get more minutes).

The argument has been made (and will probably continue) that Harden is the ideal shooting guard for Westbrook, it's just that Thabo's value as a defensive stopper and Harden's struggling offensive game equate to Thabo remaining in the starting lineup.