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	<title>Comments on: John Hollinger on Kevin Durant (and others)</title>
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	<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/</link>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24763</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24763</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-24761&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@dylan&lt;/a&gt; 
The defining idea is that players improve with time, even in-season. While lots of people like to talk about a rookie &quot;wall,&quot; statistically speaking rookies play better at the end of the year as they figure out the league. Hollinger has tried to base his formula around that common sense idea that players get better with experience, it just doesn&#039;t always work out. You&#039;ll notice also that Hollinger will explicitly state that he reworked the numbers sometimes for players injured near the end of the year. If he doesn&#039;t, injured players would be negatively impacted in a significant way because of the formula.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-24761" rel="nofollow">@dylan</a><br />
The defining idea is that players improve with time, even in-season. While lots of people like to talk about a rookie &#8220;wall,&#8221; statistically speaking rookies play better at the end of the year as they figure out the league. Hollinger has tried to base his formula around that common sense idea that players get better with experience, it just doesn&#8217;t always work out. You&#8217;ll notice also that Hollinger will explicitly state that he reworked the numbers sometimes for players injured near the end of the year. If he doesn&#8217;t, injured players would be negatively impacted in a significant way because of the formula.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24762</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24762</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-24761&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@dylan &lt;/a&gt; 
Ditto.

I agree, the best way to get his FG% up will be to start converting those inside shots like Durant did last year.  Deron Williams also provides a good recent example of a PG roughly his size who converted less than 50% of his inside shots as a rookie and eventually became very efficient inside in his second and third years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-24761" rel="nofollow">@dylan </a><br />
Ditto.</p>
<p>I agree, the best way to get his FG% up will be to start converting those inside shots like Durant did last year.  Deron Williams also provides a good recent example of a PG roughly his size who converted less than 50% of his inside shots as a rookie and eventually became very efficient inside in his second and third years.</p>
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		<title>By: dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24761</link>
		<dc:creator>dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24761</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-24760&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Keith&lt;/a&gt; 

excellent post. I&#039;ve looked into Hollinger&#039;s methodology, but I never knew it weighted the last month so heavily. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-24760" rel="nofollow">@Keith</a> </p>
<p>excellent post. I&#8217;ve looked into Hollinger&#8217;s methodology, but I never knew it weighted the last month so heavily. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24760</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24760</guid>
		<description>The reason Hollinger&#039;s stats predict so poorly for Westbrook is because it puts greater priority on end of year stats for rookies. Statistically, Westbrook had his worst shooting months at the end of the season, so Hollinger&#039;s formula tends to think those will be closest to his actual numbers next year. With such an inefficient shot throughout the year, his PER should go down.

In a lot of ways this is more of a problem than his decision making. He will never have Paul or Kidd court-vision, but he can learn where his teammates will be without seeing them. However, there needs to be a huge leap in his shooting/finishing for anything to really move along. I think we expect a lot more from him, and he needs to see Durant to figure it out. Durant jumped 7% in finishing around the rim just by being used to seeing a help defender. Russell needs to make the same adjustment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason Hollinger&#8217;s stats predict so poorly for Westbrook is because it puts greater priority on end of year stats for rookies. Statistically, Westbrook had his worst shooting months at the end of the season, so Hollinger&#8217;s formula tends to think those will be closest to his actual numbers next year. With such an inefficient shot throughout the year, his PER should go down.</p>
<p>In a lot of ways this is more of a problem than his decision making. He will never have Paul or Kidd court-vision, but he can learn where his teammates will be without seeing them. However, there needs to be a huge leap in his shooting/finishing for anything to really move along. I think we expect a lot more from him, and he needs to see Durant to figure it out. Durant jumped 7% in finishing around the rim just by being used to seeing a help defender. Russell needs to make the same adjustment.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve H</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24757</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 21:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24757</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t wait to see how our guys perform this Wedsneday.  My little pocket schedule indicates it should be broadcast on either channel 15 or 52, but I can&#039;t seem to find it on their broadcast schedule.  From the way Ibaka played this summer, I honestly wouldn&#039;t be suprised to see them bringing him off the bench with the main club rather than stashing him away up in Tulsa. Wednesday&#039;s game should give us some idea of how ready Coach thinks he is to run with the big boys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t wait to see how our guys perform this Wedsneday.  My little pocket schedule indicates it should be broadcast on either channel 15 or 52, but I can&#8217;t seem to find it on their broadcast schedule.  From the way Ibaka played this summer, I honestly wouldn&#8217;t be suprised to see them bringing him off the bench with the main club rather than stashing him away up in Tulsa. Wednesday&#8217;s game should give us some idea of how ready Coach thinks he is to run with the big boys.</p>
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		<title>By: J.G.</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24756</link>
		<dc:creator>J.G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 21:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24756</guid>
		<description>Honestly, I take any projection that uses only one to two years for its sample size with a grain of salt because, and I think anyone would say this, you really just don&#039;t know what&#039;s going to happen from such a limited sample size on such a mercurial sample group (NBA rookies and sophomores).

Obviously I&#039;ll be devastated if RW has such a dip in performance, but honestly, I&#039;ll be a little upset if KD&#039;s point production RISES that much because it means that he&#039;s having to do that to compensate for a lack of production from his teammates. 

Any fan would love to see KD explode for a crazy scoring average, but the smart fan knows better, because such a high scoring average means Harden, Green, Westbrook, etc. are not carrying their load and it also means Durant would have to be playing an insane amount of minutes to accomplish that, which then means that the Thunder&#039;s bench is also not contributing. And the last thing this team needs is a step back in depth and offensive efficiency.

So thanks, but no thanks, to Hollinger&#039;s prediction on points. But I&#039;ll take more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks any day of the week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, I take any projection that uses only one to two years for its sample size with a grain of salt because, and I think anyone would say this, you really just don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to happen from such a limited sample size on such a mercurial sample group (NBA rookies and sophomores).</p>
<p>Obviously I&#8217;ll be devastated if RW has such a dip in performance, but honestly, I&#8217;ll be a little upset if KD&#8217;s point production RISES that much because it means that he&#8217;s having to do that to compensate for a lack of production from his teammates. </p>
<p>Any fan would love to see KD explode for a crazy scoring average, but the smart fan knows better, because such a high scoring average means Harden, Green, Westbrook, etc. are not carrying their load and it also means Durant would have to be playing an insane amount of minutes to accomplish that, which then means that the Thunder&#8217;s bench is also not contributing. And the last thing this team needs is a step back in depth and offensive efficiency.</p>
<p>So thanks, but no thanks, to Hollinger&#8217;s prediction on points. But I&#8217;ll take more rebounds, assists, steals and blocks any day of the week.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24753</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24753</guid>
		<description>I think Dylan&#039;s quoted comment above is right on; however, I&#039;m still particularly confused that Hollinger&#039;s formula didn&#039;t project an increase in Russ&#039;s PER or TS%.  

As Hollinger noted in Brook Lopez&#039;s projection and has often been noted on this site, &quot;players that tend to improve the most as youngsters are the ones who have high turnover rates and strong athletic indicators (rebounds, blocks, steals, free throw attempts).&quot;  Russ was off the charts for his position in those categories, so I expecting Hollinger&#039;s projection to have him making a big leap and was even wondering if he would be projected above Rose based on those factors.

Anyway, I&#039;m glad these are just projections as it will be a long season for the Thunder if Russ takes such a big step back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Dylan&#8217;s quoted comment above is right on; however, I&#8217;m still particularly confused that Hollinger&#8217;s formula didn&#8217;t project an increase in Russ&#8217;s PER or TS%.  </p>
<p>As Hollinger noted in Brook Lopez&#8217;s projection and has often been noted on this site, &#8220;players that tend to improve the most as youngsters are the ones who have high turnover rates and strong athletic indicators (rebounds, blocks, steals, free throw attempts).&#8221;  Russ was off the charts for his position in those categories, so I expecting Hollinger&#8217;s projection to have him making a big leap and was even wondering if he would be projected above Rose based on those factors.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m glad these are just projections as it will be a long season for the Thunder if Russ takes such a big step back.</p>
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		<title>By: f5alcon</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24752</link>
		<dc:creator>f5alcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24752</guid>
		<description>As long as durant is, he should be capable of lots of blocks and steals, i mean he is only 35 lbs and 2 inches smaller then garnett is now, but averages 0.7 blocks and 0.6 steals less and 5.7 rebs less. When garnett came into the league he only weighed 220 lbs(about what durant is now) and still grabbed 6.3 rebs. Now obviously they play different positions, but at least the steals durant is capable of matching. Also durants assists will hopefully increase with harden being a better shooter, nothing like passing to watson and him missing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long as durant is, he should be capable of lots of blocks and steals, i mean he is only 35 lbs and 2 inches smaller then garnett is now, but averages 0.7 blocks and 0.6 steals less and 5.7 rebs less. When garnett came into the league he only weighed 220 lbs(about what durant is now) and still grabbed 6.3 rebs. Now obviously they play different positions, but at least the steals durant is capable of matching. Also durants assists will hopefully increase with harden being a better shooter, nothing like passing to watson and him missing</p>
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		<title>By: dylan</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24751</link>
		<dc:creator>dylan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24751</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-24750&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Jax Raging Bile Duct&lt;/a&gt; 
I&#039;m the same way. 

Basketball is so much harder to quantify statistically than baseball. In baseball, you&#039;re talking about what&#039;s essentially an individual sport. Each team gets 27 outs, so on and so forth.

But with basketball it&#039;s totally different. A point guard getting 10 assists with the Knicks isn&#039;t the same as one getting 10 assists with a slower team. A guy might shoot 40 percent from the 3-point line on a team with a dominant post man who draws attention in the paint, but on a squad without that presence, his percentage drops.

What I&#039;m getting at is that I support Hollinger&#039;s work, because I love that he&#039;s attempting to quantify basketball in a way that goes beyond what can be sometimes misleading stats, but at the same time, you have to look at PER and stats of that nature with a critical eye.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-24750" rel="nofollow">@Jax Raging Bile Duct</a><br />
I&#8217;m the same way. </p>
<p>Basketball is so much harder to quantify statistically than baseball. In baseball, you&#8217;re talking about what&#8217;s essentially an individual sport. Each team gets 27 outs, so on and so forth.</p>
<p>But with basketball it&#8217;s totally different. A point guard getting 10 assists with the Knicks isn&#8217;t the same as one getting 10 assists with a slower team. A guy might shoot 40 percent from the 3-point line on a team with a dominant post man who draws attention in the paint, but on a squad without that presence, his percentage drops.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m getting at is that I support Hollinger&#8217;s work, because I love that he&#8217;s attempting to quantify basketball in a way that goes beyond what can be sometimes misleading stats, but at the same time, you have to look at PER and stats of that nature with a critical eye.</p>
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		<title>By: Jax Raging Bile Duct</title>
		<link>http://www.dailythunder.com/2009/10/john-hollinger-on-kevin-durant-and-others/comment-page-1/#comment-24750</link>
		<dc:creator>Jax Raging Bile Duct</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dailythunder.com/?p=5071#comment-24750</guid>
		<description>I have a love/hate relationship with John Hollinger articles.

I love that Hollinger will value a player who isn&#039;t famous because that player performs well on the court (statistically). Hollinger&#039;s tendency to look at the numbers first helps curtail the love-fest that the poster kids get from other authors. This is also why I love the True Hoop network; they get into more detail about players other than Kobe and LeBron.

I hate Hollinger articles because I&#039;m not in love with the PER formula, yet most of his articles/arguments center around it. PER is a good tool. In my mind, it isn&#039;t as good as adjusted +/-, but it&#039;s a good tool. But to focus as much attention on it as he does is annoying and repetitive, which is ironic since the reason I began reading his articles in the first place is because everyone else just wanted to swoon over Kobe and LeBron (which was annoying and repetitive).

Hollinger&#039;s right about KD though. His defense and passing needs improvement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a love/hate relationship with John Hollinger articles.</p>
<p>I love that Hollinger will value a player who isn&#8217;t famous because that player performs well on the court (statistically). Hollinger&#8217;s tendency to look at the numbers first helps curtail the love-fest that the poster kids get from other authors. This is also why I love the True Hoop network; they get into more detail about players other than Kobe and LeBron.</p>
<p>I hate Hollinger articles because I&#8217;m not in love with the PER formula, yet most of his articles/arguments center around it. PER is a good tool. In my mind, it isn&#8217;t as good as adjusted +/-, but it&#8217;s a good tool. But to focus as much attention on it as he does is annoying and repetitive, which is ironic since the reason I began reading his articles in the first place is because everyone else just wanted to swoon over Kobe and LeBron (which was annoying and repetitive).</p>
<p>Hollinger&#8217;s right about KD though. His defense and passing needs improvement.</p>
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