Daily Thunder.com

@Kev
A dramatic, self imposed exile because people were complaining about his lengthy posts.

Steve H :@Jax Raging Bile Duct Sorry, but when people get snarky its hard not to get snarky in response. Please Royce, don’t make me join Crow in the balcony- I just look silly in a cape.

what happened to Crow??

GAP :@Kev I think Gay would make a good 2 guard for THIS team and can play some D on the SG’s in this league. Now don’t kill me Kev for my assesment of Gay, but if we’re looking for someone to stretch the floor with 3pt shooting Gay would fit that bill nicely.
It would be a pick your poison if you will, If teams double Durant then Gay would burn you for a sweet 3. The slashing prowess of Gay not to mention his jumper would send opposing coaches into cardiac arrest trying to gameplan this team. Especially with Westbrook spreading the love with his new found PG skills and the fact that Russel can get into the paint anytime he wants.

I have seen Gay play plenty to know that Presti would never trade for him . . . he's not a team player . . .

Agreed. I've been in Dallas all day and haven't been able to really keep up. Let's keep it cordial and civil.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
I'm noticing that myself.... One of the things I like most about this forum is that everyone is relaxed and respectful. I would hate to see that change. If I want to argue I will go to Yahoo, or Loud City, or ESPN.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
Sorry, but when people get snarky its hard not to get snarky in response. Please Royce, don't make me join Crow in the balcony- I just look silly in a cape.

We're getting rude around here lately.

I'm not into it.

@GAP
Sorry, that last one was for you.

We just spent the highest draft pick that we will hopefully have for many years to come on a shooting guard. We have Thabo, that every NBA commentator on the planet agrees was flat out stolen from Chicago by Presti. We have KD. We have Uncle Jeff. You think we should blow 8 to 10 mill per to try to land Rudy Gay in free agency- a small forward that COULD play 2 guard, when we have all that lined up already? I'm guessing you rode the short bus to school.

And Gay is from Maryland too, that would make for good reception with Durant and Green.

@Bryan
And the right situation is after a timeout when they have the ball for offense in last minute situations or game ending situations, unless the Thunder are down three and then you substitute Collison for Harden (and all of this depends upon Harden/Thabo's three point shooting ability). Otherwise, the defensive issues still remain.

And I agree on Gay, too much flash and not enough substance. He's a passing black hole and I still don't see how the Grizzlies will have more than 10 assists a game with an AI, Mayo, Gay, Randolph, Gasol starting five.

@Kev
I think Gay would make a good 2 guard for THIS team and can play some D on the SG's in this league. Now don't kill me Kev for my assesment of Gay, but if we're looking for someone to stretch the floor with 3pt shooting Gay would fit that bill nicely.

It would be a pick your poison if you will, If teams double Durant then Gay would burn you for a sweet 3. The slashing prowess of Gay not to mention his jumper would send opposing coaches into cardiac arrest trying to gameplan this team. Especially with Westbrook spreading the love with his new found PG skills and the fact that Russel can get into the paint anytime he wants.

Man... Kev is just doin battle today...lol

But I have to agree that Durant cannot guard the quicker SG's. But, I still think that the RW/Durant/Green/Collison (or Ibaka)/Kirstic combo deserves time in the right situations.

Gay is the typical overrated NBA scorer - he can score twenty a game but he does nothing else - he is part of the reason why the Grizzlies stink . . .

@Dai
I believe that Gay could play the 2 very easily and he has a very smooth jumpshot that goes all the way to New Jersey, that could definetely change our fortunes for shooting at the 2.

change are to are not . . .

I will preface my post by saying that I didnt see the Miami game. IF Durant could guard twos it would solve a lot of problems. I can pretty much assume that if Wade had been playing, then Durant wouldnt have been guarding him - at 6-10 I dont think he has the lateral quickness to stay with most shooting guards . . .

and to further elaborate - what if he did? then you are starting him at two and pushing Thabo (easily our best defender) to the bench. We get bigger inside, but there is no lockdown defender on the outside. You STILL are gaining much (if anything) . . .

And my dad can totally beat up your dad... even with bad knees and chronic fatigue syndrom.

@Kev
Point taken... but Durant didn't cover Beasley the other night. Green did. Durant covered Miami's shooting guards. Durant also had some pretty good minutes at the 2 against the Suns, with Green at the 3, Ibaka at the 4 and Thomas at the 5. They opened up a pretty nice lead during that stretch and I'm fairly certain that Durant got a block. He also got a nice block on one of Miami's shooting guards the otherr night.

Rookie and sophmore mistakes guarding slightly faster guards does not mean he can't make it happen. If he can, it solves a lot of interior problems and gives the team one extra trade piece at the 2 spot.

Just a thought. I wouldn't build the whole team around it unless it worked well. More than anything it's just way to exploit some matchups.

I think most of us expected the athleticism from Ibaka, but not from Harden. Though Harden is a better athlete than I thought, what I've seen so far hasn't been surprising.

It's easy to fall for Ibaka with his hustle and such, but he's a bit reckless so far. He's insulated from that recklessness a bit playing PF or C. But if he were to handle the ball as much as Harden, I think we'd all be pulling our hair out at the turnovers/bad decisions. That's not to bemoan Ibaka, he's playing better than expected so far.

But Harden is stable and steady. He's not turnover prone, and he isn't making bad decisions. That's worth much more than we're giving him credit for.

Both of them will be inconsistent for a while - they're rookies.

Bryan :@Kev There really is a log jam inside. But, I don’t think Kirstic is really the problem. The problem is the Kirstic/Green combo. Both guys are nice players, they just don’t make sense as a player pair because neither is a dominant defensive presence. I think Thomas/Green and Kirstic/Ibaka make good player pairs, and I REALLY think you can fix the problem by shifting Green back out to the wing and Durant over to the sooting guard spot for significant minutes. That allows you to bring in more size at PF with Collison, Ibaka or White. With Ibaka in particular (given development) it would make the team STUPID long and athletic… With Kirstic able to spread the defense and Ibaka able to provide help down low, I think it would be a pretty hard starting five to centend with.
If nothing else, the team has some nice inside assets for dealing later this season, like Collison’s expiring contract and, White’s and Ibaka’s cheap contracts. I don’t think that dumping Kirstic would solve anything unless he was traded for just the right guy.

Durant cannot cover twos - that was established this time last year. Also, at times, Brooks played Durant at the two last year with embarassing results. Green probably should play the three, but not if it means moving Durant to the two.

I would also say that when Brooks finally FORCED Harden to be the offensive threat against the Suns late in the game, he did what had to be done. He looked a bit hestiant and freaked out, and maybe a bit sloppy, but he got to the line and made his shots when it mattered.

I think he will be great, I was just hoping for an Ibaka-style coming out party where we all go hunting for bowtie nicknames.

@Bryan
I hear ya, and I definitely understand the feeling of "hmmm, is this what we got with the third pick?" but just keep in mind what Westbrook did in the preseason and first 10 games of the season last year.

Especially with the lineup mashups and the fact that Harden is used to being the playmaker instead of the finisher. It may actually take him a little more time to settle into his role but with his basketball IQ, when he does he is likely to play like a veteran.

@J.G.
I don't mean to denegrate Harden whatsoever. I'm one of his biggest boosters and was just doing the "worst case" thing.

@J.G.
Very well put... Seems to me that even if Harden does no pan out, Rubio was not the best option with Westbrook still around. I really expect RW to come on strong this year. And I expect Harden to come along just fine.

@Bryan
One more thing, Bryan, please tell me that you aren't actually disappointed in a rookie because of preseason games.

Give him 20-30 regular season games and then we can all get a really good indicator about what we can expect from him this year. Otherwise, preseason is one of the worst ways to try and judge how a first year player will develop or perform in the upcoming year.

@Kev
There really is a log jam inside. But, I don't think Kirstic is really the problem. The problem is the Kirstic/Green combo. Both guys are nice players, they just don't make sense as a player pair because neither is a dominant defensive presence. I think Thomas/Green and Kirstic/Ibaka make good player pairs, and I REALLY think you can fix the problem by shifting Green back out to the wing and Durant over to the sooting guard spot for significant minutes. That allows you to bring in more size at PF with Collison, Ibaka or White. With Ibaka in particular (given development) it would make the team STUPID long and athletic... With Kirstic able to spread the defense and Ibaka able to provide help down low, I think it would be a pretty hard starting five to centend with.

If nothing else, the team has some nice inside assets for dealing later this season, like Collison's expiring contract and, White's and Ibaka's cheap contracts. I don't think that dumping Kirstic would solve anything unless he was traded for just the right guy.

@J.G.
You've nailed it! I'm big on Westbrook as a slasher/defender but not as a shooter.

I don't even think there's a question now about if Rubio should have been picked instead of Harden and it has nothing to do with the fact that he's not going to be coming over for at least 2 years, probably 3...Westbrook is not a shooting guard.

Everyone talks about how RW is not a "true" point guard, but it is even more abundantly clear that he's not a shooting guard. He lacks the one thing that a shooting guard has to have in abundance: a sweet shot.

The theory was that Rubio would be the pg and Westbrook would slide over to sg and HOPEFULLY either of them would dramatically improve their outside shooting enough to stretch a defense and make the 3 a threat for the Thunder (shoot, I was one of them, too). And maybe we all thought that because we hadn't seen Westbrook play in three months but it is so abundantly clear that Westbrook is more of a point guard than a shooting guard that anyone who still thinks Rubio should have taken because RW could have moved over to SG is just not facing the facts.

I expect RW's FG% to improve in his sophomore year, as it almost always does for second year players...but not because he suddenly finds a Durant-esque stroke from deep. He'll take smarter shots with a higher % of going in.

And Kev, having a logjam of quality talent anywhere is a good problem to have. The question is about the quality part.

@GAP

I consider Gay to be KD-lite, but can he play the 2?

@Bryan
Well I must be right too :-)

we've got a logjam inside - and that's an issue . . .

how long is Krstic's contract?? It looked like a good signing nine months ago, but what about now??

Collison is still here . . .

We've got DJ White, Ibaka and Etan Thomas . . .

and let's not forget Green, who is taking up "big" minutes . . .

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
Nicely put

@Kev
I know what you mean... I just think we should give Kirstic some time to prove us wrong. And there is real potential with the current list of bigs...

@Keith @Kev

When you aren't winning, it's easy to be frustrated that Green isn't a better PF, and that Krstic isn't a better C, and that Russell isn't a better PG.

Versatility isn't a substitute word for "not a good basketball player". Lamar Odom is versatile. LeBron James is versatile. Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnet are versatile.

I'm sure if our team won, we'd be happy about their versatility. But when they don't, we find how they're different from our traditional thinking, and point at that difference as the reason.

I'm not knocking the traditional either. The traditional team is a proven winner. But it doesn't mean that a versatile team can't win.

@GAP
That could be an aquisition worth making...

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=14059
Here's a story on how Rudy Gay can't get a deal done and might become a FA in 2010. Now I might get bashed for saying this, but can you imagine RW, Gay, Durant, Green and whatever C playing together?

We would kill the league and have a large window for a championship for years to come. The size and scoring would be too much for even the Celtics or Spurs defenses to handle. And it says that sources close to the situation says that Gay's camp isn't even looking for the max contract!

IMO I would definitely love to see Gay and Durant, with Gay being the obvious 2nd weapon on offense and we could possibly put 4 out of 5 of our starters in the Olympics.

Oh, below that is a story on Durant to boot!

Krstic is okay, but we need a defensive presence inside, whether it's Thomas or Ibaks or someone else . . .

@GAP
Then I must be right... :)

@Keith
With respect to picking the best player available, I think that is true up to a point. If you already have Durant and Green on your squad it seems a bit silly to me to go after another SF in the draft... unless you are picking first and the consensus #1 is a SF.

I don't see any harm in picking for need if the best player available creates problems for the roster. The player has to be really special to justify all that, like Griffin perhaps. We would have to debate as to whether Rubio was worth it. Clearly Presti didn't think so.

@Bryan
I agree with you.

@Keith
True. I've been a little disapointed with Harden thus far (and I was one of his biggest boosters), but I think he just needs some time to adjust. I don't see him starting until mid-season, when he starts to get comfortable.

My point with Russ being the vindicating player, is that a lot of people who wanted Rubio felt like Russ would never be a true point guard. So far, it looks like he has the potential to prove those people wrong.

I just wonder how different preseason would be with two serious PG's on the floor and Russ getting minutes at the 2... how would that have effected his development??

The NBA, more than other sports, is a place you cannot draft based on roster need. There are only so many great players, and having one makes such a huge difference that it doesn't matter what you have established at any position. If Cleveland had gotten the second pick in 07, they still would have picked Durant. If LA had the 5th pick in 03, they still would have picked Wade. San Antonio DID pick TD despite already having Robinson at C. You pick the best player available in the NBA. Teams that do not, don't end up going far.

@Bryan
I still love Rubio as a player, and as a GM would have picked him second or third should I have known he would come over, but Russell has really taken his passing and game-management to another level. Vindication isn't really necessary since I don't think anyone was calling Harden a bad player, just not their preference. As it is, it isn't Russell who will "vindicate" the pick, but Harden. If Harden turns out to be the starting SG we need, the Presti wins. If he doesn't, and Rubio later becomes a great PG, it will still have been a poor decision.

I think everyone is being a bit hard on Kirstic. Sure he's not the ultimate Center, but the guy can play and it looks to me (based on recent international play on one preseason game) that he has improved his conditioning, his shot and will probably play a little better team defense.

I'm just saying. I mean he's not Swift 2.0 for crying out loud!

agree with Keith . . . excellent posting . . .

hopefully RW's improoved PG play transfers to the regular season . . . Jeff Green is still playing out of position, and Krstic is not a legitimate starter for our team . . .

And who thinks we would have had more TV games if Rubio was on the squad??? (raising hand really high)

@Bryan
I'm done giving hats off to Royce...He's getting cocky...the Jim Traber kind of cocky...if you ask me

(only kidding)

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
I'm just trying to mitigate the love for something that, to this point, has no tangible results. We had multi-talented players last year and, even given our progression, still weren't very good. I'm not saying that pre-season is a good measure either, it's not. It's considerably more useful than watching the NFL preseason, but winning or looking good there doesn't say much about how good we will be in the regular season.

The versatility strategy might work, I just think it's jumping the gun a bit to be excited about it (or players kept for that reason). I mean, really what were our biggest gripes last year? They weren't that the bench guys weren't getting it done; they were that Russell wasn't an offense-setting PG, that Green couldn't go down low like a PF, and that Krstic needed play like a paint-defending C. Our versatility in those players was seen in a rather negative light because versatility doesn't always mean "good at everything." In many cases, it means "mediocre at everything, great at nothing."

That said, I think it's about time to spark another Harden/Rubio debate....

Who thinks the preseason would have been a lot more fun with Rubio on the court?

Who thinks that Westbrook's obvious improvement vindicates Presti not taking him (as if the contract thing hadn't already)???