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@Clark Matthews
Even then, I don’t think anyone was talking themselves into the beginning of the Etan Thomas era by any means. Crows points don’t actually disagree with any of the things we like about this trade. We gained a roster spot, retained expiring contract status, and are set up better for a future trade.

@Steve H

That makes sense as a long-term building strategy – as a way to increase Thomas’ stock for a trade (a la Wilcox). But, the team had better put together some wins this year (like 35 of ‘em at least) if they expect ticket sales to remain constant and hope to increase the team’s media market share.

I’d say give the guy whatever minutes he deserves based on how he plays and practices.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
I guess that depends on who becomes “swift 2.0″

You are probably right Clark. If he just meant that, that is not that bad. I sometimes “rain doubt”, though this time I thought it was fairly mild. I see it as a necessary and normal part of analyzing / understanding but am aware that others may find it excessive. So filter it as you wish, for the time being. I filter some of the praise & optimism that others bring.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
That would be B.J. Mullens my friend. Even if he’s playing in Tulsa…..that is unless he develops a post game. Then my vote is crow.

Here’s a thought and a question since most of you know way more about B-ball than me:

Is it possible that Presti just positioned himself for a Boozer trade?

I mean, nobody needs more salary help more than Utah. Boozer wants out of town. We could cough up some draft picks and Thomas’ or Collison’s expiring contracts (or both). They get a mediocre big and some financial assistance and maybe some draft picks to play with, and we get instant help inside. Just a thought.

D-Money :@Jax Raging Bile DuctThat would be B.J. Mullens my friend. Even if he’s playing in Tulsa…..that is unless he develops a post game. Then my vote is crow.

HAHA!!!! That’s messed up..

Vaden is something of a test case for the Presti “fixation” on the draft and his belief in his own picks.

I didn’t know anything about Taylor Griffin as a player before the draft but your idea might be worth doing Bryan if the Suns don’t sign him. I don’t know if they will or not.

Mullens might feel some heat from others but even though I am not that positive about him I intend to lay off and let him grow up and make it or not on his own.

Interesting D-Money. I’ll either ignore it, laugh along with some of it. leave, or bring it back at folks full force. Not sure which…

Steve H. Thomas could play the tough guy starter in limited minutes to help set the tone of the game like Danny Fortson did afe w years ago. If they want to be tough or even just think more tough. Or maybe he brings that vibe mainly to practice.

@D-Money

The jokes are gonna suck if we’re using a D-Leaguer. They’ll be even worse if we use each other.

On the bright side, at least we won’t be making jokes about our sorry players.

Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Green want to drive the lane in practice… be prepared to be whacked? Would Presti think that? I bet that is what Etan is thinking that is part of his role.

Thomas is a solid addition for what we gave up. Nice job by Presti to snag the picks as well.

Bj should fill that role for a couple of years till he improves@Jax Raging Bile Duct

I’m still going to blame every loss on Earl Watson. That is what I did last season, and I see no reason to change.

@Crow
That was my thinking- what we need to compliment our starting unit is a Mongo. (as in- “Mongo smash little man with ball. Mongo grab ball. Mongo stuff ball through iron ring”) Ultimately, we should be looking for a younger, better Mongo than Thomas (Gortat comes immediately to mind- and Orlando could sure use some of our picks to cheaply fill roster spots around their over-priced starting unit), but Thomas should be able to semi-fill that role on an interim basis. I really hope we hang on to Krstic, and would like to see him sign an extension, but eventually expect to see him playing behind the best Mongo we can sign.

Yeah Steve there is a place for a Mongo- or a very refined interior guy who gives you those results in a different quieter way.

Mullens is the next development project. Whatever they tried with Swift, Petro and Sene didn’t work but it was probably mainly on the players. I am tempted to say play him regular like they tried with Petro but I think it will start out more like Swift or Sene- on level of opportunity.

Presti doesn’t seem to be a big believer in vets around long-term – at this stage- but he does seem to believe in short-term vet influences. Etan will have some impact as Smith, Thomas and Rose did. Some.

If it doesn’t work out they can always cut him and that would be not that different as buying out Wilkins and Atkins. Well I guess it would cost the owner about $3 million more but that isn’t a concern to me. You got 2nd rounders for the trouble & cost.

There a lot of options. I guess the options with Wilkins and Atkins were considered exhausted and that is probably right, even if they hoped for better.

“Thomas’ $7.3M deal can be flipped much easier at the deadline than Wilkins and Atkins”

This makes me wonder why Etan’s contract will be easy to flip at the deadline, but Watson’s wouldn’t have been. Anyone know?

Wasn’t Chucky Atkins’ deal only partially guaranteed for something like $800k? If that’s the case, then basically Sam Presti spent ~$3.5 million on a couple second round draft choices and a guy who will probably be lucky to play half a season for the Thunder next year.

I don’t like this trade at all..

I think Vaden’s job will be decided in training camp and not before. If he does what they want him to do in training camp and preseason, I think they will keep him, sign him to a small contract and send him to Tulsa as a protected player. If he doesn’t, he will go the way of Denham Brown.

This is a good move. They got something that has the POTENTIAL to strengthen the team, fill a need and it didn’t cost us much to replace two players who had no value to us.

Joe :I think Vaden’s job will be decided in training camp and not before. If he does what they want him to do in training camp and preseason, I think they will keep him, sign him to a small contract and send him to Tulsa as a protected player. If he doesn’t, he will go the way of Denham Brown.
This is a good move. They got something that has the POTENTIAL to strengthen the team, fill a need and it didn’t cost us much to replace two players who had no value to us.

But it did cost the team. Those two players who had no value could have been bought out, one of them even had a partially guaranteed contract. Presti essentially paid ~$3.5 million (Atkins non-guaranteed portion of contract plus difference in value between Thomas and Atkins / Wilkins) to acquire a complete non-factor in Thomas and two second rounders. Not a good trade off..

Also, unless Presti decides to make an unforseen splash in free agency, Thomas’ value as an expiring is not that great considering the Thunder will be able to barter with pure cap space instead.

@Anonymous
If we are looking to pick up a Gortat or Camby by the trade deadline by offering a fist-full of picks, whoever we are dealing with might want/need a replacement big. Salary dump? got you covered. Want a filler big to go with those draft picks? got you covered. Maybe we do nothing come the trade deadline, but we are without question the single best positioned team to make such a move.

@Anonymous
I mentioned it before, but it can’t be overlooked how trigger happy the NBA is over big men. A SG who can’t shoot is absolutely worthless. A PG who never sees the floor is the same. A big man who can do one thing or another in limited minutes? Now that’s worth taking on as an expiring contract. Would the 3.5 million now have made such a big difference in our trading option? Probably not, since we are far enough under the cap (around 9 million) to take on a lot of guys for nothing, and most anybody if we add Etan’s expiring contract.

Also, we didn’t pay 3.5 million (extra from not releasing Atkins) just for second rounders, but also for an extra roster spot that Atkins or Wilkins would have forced us to empty. Don’t just think of it as trading Etan’s zero production for Atkins and Wilkins’ zero production. Think of it as also gaining the production of Serge Ibaka, DJ White, or whomever else would not have had a chance to play.

@Keith
How much production can we expect from the last guy to make the roster?

Crow :
You are probably right Clark. If he just meant that, that is not that bad. I sometimes “rain doubt”, though this time I thought it was fairly mild. I see it as a necessary and normal part of analyzing / understanding but am aware that others may find it excessive. So filter it as you wish, for the time being. I filter some of the praise & optimism that others bring.

Clark is right on the money, not intending to be divisive or negative. It just seems like you have a fundamental disagreement with the “Presti method” and that is completely cool, there is a definite need for ‘doubter’ mindset as well. I guess I am just still on the “NBA high” of having a team.

However I do think that what Presti is doing is very effective and seems to be working. To me the thing about the 5 picks is that this team still hasn’t really done anything yet. If the RW experiment takes a bad turn or if injuries occur Presti will have options with picks or trade able assets.

Anyway, hope there are no hard feelings. Just seems like a difference in how we view the topic.

Crap, this was me ^^^^^^^

No hard feelings Wilson. For a moment I thought it was more of a personal shot than apparently it was. Criticize me for my basketball critique and that alone, you can do that.

I will sometimes I say things and I mean…
“This is the toughest I think you are say fairly. Does it hold up? I think so. What do you think?”

Yes I have been a frequent critic of the Presti method- PJ, Green with Durant, turning running the team over to a young PG, letting the young guys shot so much wherever they want right away, the strong move away from the 3 pointer and associated increase in mid-rangers, the choice of mostly offensive-biased players despite the talk of defense, the heavy emphasis on ever more draft picks, the previous starting lineup, maybe the long-term potential of Brooks, etc.

But in the end it will be what he has accomplishes by year 4 or 5. Or 6 or later.

He might prove right, so I look at stuff as best I can to see if it will work or if it can be made to work. Where I agree with him I’ll say it. Most notably Weaver, White and Harden.

I have meant to test and challenge the wisdom of insiders in general but I don’t want to be a buzzkill to fans. It is hard to do one without the other unfortunately. I get close to backing out but it has been a habit. As I’ve said before, we’ll see how it goes from here.

Anyways good luck to the fans.

The summary of the Presti “method” should have included playing fast and the inefficiency so far. Next year will be a further test of that. I think it fair to expect better results in Durant Year 3 with more help around now, all Presti’s guys and Presti’s coach and his direction. Does the offense get to 25th, 20th, 15th? It is a curiosity.

@Gar
Certainly more than we would have gotten from Atkins or Wilkins. And for that matter, it could speed up the development of someone into a highly productive player in the near future.

@Crow
I think the Presti method is not a single plan for all the years it plays out. I’ve hated the way he handed over the key to the team to rookies each year. But at that same time, Durant has become tremendous in his second year, and Green too has taken a very big leap. Perhaps Presti is sacrificing the short term wins of the team (giving rookies all those shots) in order to drastically speed up development. We can’t be sure, at this point, whether it will work out, but I don’t think it is Presti’s plan for the whole time.

I think Presti intends the team to work in stages. The last two years have been the “talent” phase, stockpiling players and forcing them to develop. Perhaps this year or the next, we’ll enter the “team phase” where Brooks (or another coach) starts forcing all the talents to merge and work cohesively. And, hopefully, there is a final “championship” phase whereby the team plays strong together and is finely tuned and tweaked to compete for the ultimate prize.

its a fresh face that could help out when needed, good move as usual by uncle sam!!!!

Yes Keith it is good to think in phases and I think Presti does and that is why despite my critique I haven’t drawn final conclusions yet. If things change along the schedule you lay out then Presti can fully earn the praise he has been given in advance. Lots of players will probably change out, maybe another coach or two. If you got to a point where it isn’t working out, he’ll have to change. But that is common. Ainge, Ferry, Kupchak and O Smith had to adapt.

As much as I was critical of the last place on 3s made I have to assume it was to some degree a phase now that Harden has been selected. If Vaden sticks it will be to address this issue primarily. Whether it was something planned all along or an adjustment it is hard to say. Still need to see how much the 3 point game increases.

I think this is a good deal, but I’m unsure that Thomas will play very much at all. If we have him backing up Kristic then we would have to have Collison backing up Green. Then White and Ibaka would be the 3rd and 4th power forwards on the team. I think we want to develop those guys. I would want White as our 2nd power forward and Ibaka to get trash minutes, instead of Collison as the 2nd and White getting trash mins. Collison did well playing the 5 when we needed him to, although I do not believe he is in any way a true 5. I just want to see if our young big men will develop into anything. If they are nothing but end of bench players then we need to fill that hole with a trade, but if they do develop like we hope then we do not need to.

@Bryan
I’d go to that! Maybe Shaq will show up with a new “hook to drop”!
Hey Kobe!…

Also thanks to Presti for keeping us going in the off-season with something to discuss!!

Really can’t see how anyone could think this is a good deal.. $3.5 million for two second rounders? Etan Thomas is a veteran’s minimum type player at this point..

Team would have been much better off buying out Wilkins / Atkins and signing someone like Brian Skinner to the veteran minimum.

Something that no one has really brought up? When you trade players they have to be within a certain % of each other’s salary, so this is what makes Etan more tradeable to teams wanting to dump cap space. Either way Atkins+Wilkins=Etan thomas contract, but when trading to another team, it is MUCH easier to move one guy (especially a big) than a team that would have to take on 2 players.

I think he actually opens us up to twice the options at the trade deadline than the twosome of Wilkin+Atkins, firstly because his single man trade value is more due to his contract, thus enabling teams to dump larger contracts ($8 million+?) instead of little $3-5 million that we would have attracted from Wilkins+Atkins. Secondly, what has already been stated, is the fact that he is a center. If a team is going to dump contracts, they will be more likely to trade for a center (all teams have a big man lust) and thus will open even more doors. I just like the fact that guys making $8-9 million are usually better players, so with us being able to trade for one of those, that could mean we could be adding a very good player by the end of the year.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct

You have a point about the jokes being awful if we use a D-Leaguer as a scape-goat. We can always use Royce though because he didn’t will our team to victory and technically he is not one of us ordinary folk since he runs the site. @Royce it’s all on you to will us to 35+ wins this season…get on it .

BTW anyone think there is any merit to the thought that Etan could go in a trade to NO for okafor? This would help out their financial situation… or I could not know what I’m talking about.

@justin

I don’t think you’re hearing what we’re trying to say bro.

Crow said first that we’ve been shopping guys like Watson, Atkins and Wilkins for a while now, and there have been no bites. It’s no surprise that the team that finally bit on the deal traded us a guy who’s never played for them before.

Second, it’s much easier to move a single contract than it is multiple contracts, and Etan’s is expiring.

Third, you have one bench spot taken with a non-producer, not two. That alone is worth millions.

Fourth, you keep saying we paid 3.5 mill for two second rounders. Do you realize we bought Vaden as a 2nd round pick this past draft? It’s common to buy a 2nd round pick for 3 mill.

The real value in this trade is the open roster spot and the easier to move expiring contract.

Has anyone considered that Wilkins might not have accepted a buyout? Remember, he really sucks, so he’s going to try to get as much money now as possible because this is probably his last NBA contract.

Gar :This makes me wonder why Etan’s contract will be easy to flip at the deadline, but Watson’s wouldn’t have been. Anyone know?

I don’t know that Watson’s contract would have been hard to flip, but keeping him on the team with what, I have to assume, was becoming a surlier attitude by the day, would have been more than it was worth to hold onto.

The really nice part of Thomas’ contract for trading puroposes, as opposed to holding onto Atkins and Wilkins, is that it is much easier to trade one person once the season has begun than multiple people. Once rosters are limited to fifteen players, sending out more players than you are receiving is difficult.

Jax Raging Bile Duct :<Fourth, you keep saying we paid 3.5 mill for two second rounders. Do you realize we bought Vaden as a 2nd round pick this past draft? It’s common to buy a 2nd round pick for 3 mill.

Actually, you quoted the price for a first round pick (the maximum amount of cash that can exchange hands in a deal). I imagine second round picks are much less expensive.

@Clark Matthews

I knew 3 mill was the max cash limit, but didn’t realize teams wouldn’t ask for the full amount past the first round. Of course, now that I look for an actual dollar amount, I can only find “cash considerations” as the traded asset.

The price of 2nd round picks has crept up. It was $500-750,000 a few years ago but some teams may have paid up to $1.5 mil this season from snippets I have read, though it is hard to know what is accurate. High second round picks are often being treated like 1st rounders, sometimes better, due to not being required to go on the rookie contract but being able to offer as many years as you want.

@D-Money
I assume the Hornets got Okafor to play him, but I would LOVE it if we could somehow pry him away. Don’t know if trade rules would allow them to move him again, or allow NO to dump salary on us, but I will sign your petition. Collison and picks for Okafur? Collison and Thomas and picks for Okafur and Mo Pete? Okafor and Peja? For my money, that guy would represent the final piece in the Thunder puzzle, and would be worth over paying for.