Daily Thunder.com

J.G. :@Kev You know, I honestly wonder if other posters/blogs have as much in-depth discussion with lively debate AND have as much fun as we do here.

agree with your post and Keith's. And kudos to Royce and Joe for keeping out the namecalling . . . love the discussion here . . .

@J.G.
Doubtful. Royce has made this place one of a kind.

@Kev
You know, I honestly wonder if other posters/blogs have as much in-depth discussion with lively debate AND have as much fun as we do here.

J.G. :@dave Wait….Kev?

funny :)

@dave
Wait....Kev? :)

@dave
Wow, I just don't know how anyone can top that in-depth analysis contrasting the overall merits of Harden and Curry.

@dave
Haha and out of left field we've got a Harden hater! haha

What's up dave? You won't find too many around here to agree with you with that...

harden should not make the team steph curry is 10 times better

harden sucks

Everyone is really hot on Gortat, I watched alot of basketball this last year and I haven't seen NEARLY ENOUGH of him to sign him to a huge contract.

@Joe
totally agree, gortat is definitely more than a stopgap. and as kev said earlier, he's very good on putbacks/pick n roll, so he isn't useless offensively. he really is a cheaper version of chandler, except his foot isn't falling off (and he plays better man defense). signing him in no way says that we aren't trying to compete soon- i think he'll be better than kaman next year, and by a wide margin.

@Joe
What he said.

Great post, Joe.

I think Gortat is much more than stop gap. It's about percentages when you are trying to figure a big guys ability, not raw points and rebounds.

By percentages we can really see what is going on. There were only 17 guys in the NBA last season who played at least 500 minutes, and grabbed at least 15% OF AVAILABLE REBOUNDS and blocked at least 4% of opponents shots while HE WAS ON THE COURT. Gortat is on the list, along with Dwight Howard, Yao, Birdman etc.

Gortat is protecting the basket at a rate comparable to those guys. He blocks more shots and rebounds better by percentage than Yao, Noah, Bynum etc. He is not a 7 foot stiff if you've watched him. He is a mean rebounder, shot blocker and hustler. And he plays very tough man defense.

He is absolutely worth 6 Mil a year. No doubt about it. This financial mess is really in our favor because few teams can afford to get in a bidding war for his services, and we are one of the teams that can. You can easily pay Gortat the jack it takes to sign him, and his salary will be paid for from the second season on when Watsons 6 million dollar contract expires after this season. Gortat is worth the risk.

Here is the list: http://tinyurl.com/mzyogt

Adding on to what J.G. said, there are a lot of centers in next years draft that could prove over the next year to have great potential. Instead of the 2-center draft that we had last year, there will be several including Jordan, Alabi and others that have proven themselves to be defensive stoppers.

I think with our solid scouting, potentially 2 lottery picks, we could pick up another very good center to help build around.

Now in saying this, I will admit I'm on the Gortat bandwagon. I love his potential and I love that he is still only 25 years old. However, I want him at a bargain value, and if teams get crazy at his per minute averages (something stupid GM's do all the time) then we will pull out. We will just have to wait and see when these teams start throwing offers at him...

I'd say if Gortat asks for $6 million or more, Presti will definitely stand pat and wait for a cash-strapped team to try and move a center either now or before the deadline.

Plus, those two (probable) lottery picks make for awfully nice bargaining chips, that is unless Alabi, Aldrich, Jerome Jordan or Monroe reveal that they can dominate at the 5 spot in the NBA next year.

@Royce

thanks Royce . . .

and thanks for all the great columns . . .

I see your points - the next week or so should tell the tale . . .

@Kev
I'm not saying Gortat is a bad idea (at a reasonable price) or that Kaman is exactly what we should go for. I'm saying that either one makes more sense in different situations. And in this case, I think free agency will say a whole lot about Presti's plans. If he makes a trade for an established center (Chandler, Kaman, to a lesser extend Biedrins) it will say that he feels the team can compete right away. If he signs Gortat or does nothing, it will say that he doesn't believe he has the pieces yet and will be looking to the draft next year and future trades (after his pieces have rounded into shape) in order to put the finishing touches on.

Great discussion here fellas.

Keith :@KevI think Kaman’s injury (just like Chandler) are the big reason teams aren’t looking to take him on, not because he isn’t good. Specifically, he’s being affected by Elton Brand. Brand had a serious injury that he never fully recovered from. Brand played for the Clippers. Thus, GMs think Kaman will be the same. Not crazy, but it’s a faulty connection.

good points, Keith.

But what else are you going to do with a 23-59 team? You are right - we can't assume that Gortat's performance will translate to a productive starter. What are the alternatives???

1) Start Krstic again. He wasn't horrible, but his only offensive contribution pulled him AWAY from legit offensive rebounding position. Defensively, he didn't detract opponents from driving.

2) Turn over the center position to Mullens. No comment.

3) Sign Kaman. I won't rehash what was previosuly discussed in much of this thread's comments.

4) Sign Gortat. Bingo.

As for Chandler v Gortat, it’s about showing what you got. Gortat doesn’t play much. He puts up good per-minute numbers, and has even had some good games while Howard was out, but there’s no real basis to claim a starter’s role. Amir Johnson put up huge per minute numbers in Detroit, and even had a couple big games in extended minutes. Now, Detroit was willing to ship him out for nothing just to cut salary. I think Gortat is better than Amir, but there’s no real basis to make that claim.

@Kev
I think Kaman's injury (just like Chandler) are the big reason teams aren't looking to take him on, not because he isn't good. Specifically, he's being affected by Elton Brand. Brand had a serious injury that he never fully recovered from. Brand played for the Clippers. Thus, GMs think Kaman will be the same. Not crazy, but it's a faulty connection.

As for Chandler v Gortat, it's about showing what you got. Gortat doesn't play much. He puts up good per-minute numbers, and has even had some good games while Howard was out, but there's no real basis to claim a starter's role. Amir Johnson put up huge per minute numbers in Detroit, and even had a couple big games in extended minutes. Now, Detroit was willing to ship him out for nothing just to cut salary. I think Gortat is better than Amir, but there's no real basis to make that claim.

Keith :@KevTo be fair, my initial question was simply what people thought of grabbing Kaman. And the fact that he has been a hard worker until just this last year (an epic implosion on all fronts), I think there is more evidence to say he is a hard worker than a coaster. As for the injuries, that’s all part of the risk.
In Kaman v. Gortat, I look at it like so: Kaman makes us a better team right away at a higher cost and higher risk (injuries). Gortat is a fine stop-gap solution until we can draft or land an All-Star caliber big man. In that case, it’s not about who is better or younger. I don’t think Gortat would ever fit into the long term plans of the franchise except as a backup, whereas Kaman could be the starting center on a contender. Given the team we have, it’s just about direction. Are we playing just to develop and not worry about wins (grab Gortat) or are we trying to win now while our guys are developing (grab Kaman)?

we just have to agree to disagree. I don't think Kaman is a viable player on a contending team - Most of what I've read shows that he's not exactly coveted by teams in a league that is weak on legit centers. It has to be a sign that NO ONE is talking about getting him. Gortat may be more than stopgap - no one was complaining about Chandler coming here, and most, if not all of his scoring comes on pick and rolls with Paul and offensive putbacks - Gortat excels at both . . .

@Kev
To be fair, my initial question was simply what people thought of grabbing Kaman. And the fact that he has been a hard worker until just this last year (an epic implosion on all fronts), I think there is more evidence to say he is a hard worker than a coaster. As for the injuries, that's all part of the risk.

In Kaman v. Gortat, I look at it like so: Kaman makes us a better team right away at a higher cost and higher risk (injuries). Gortat is a fine stop-gap solution until we can draft or land an All-Star caliber big man. In that case, it's not about who is better or younger. I don't think Gortat would ever fit into the long term plans of the franchise except as a backup, whereas Kaman could be the starting center on a contender. Given the team we have, it's just about direction. Are we playing just to develop and not worry about wins (grab Gortat) or are we trying to win now while our guys are developing (grab Kaman)?

Dustin :per si
“Oklahoma City could have at least $13 million in space, but the Thunder are unlikely to make a major signing for a couple of reasons: This is a relatively weak free-agent market, and they are committed to a disciplined salary structure (similar to Detroit and San Antonio of recent years) which they’re unlikely to upset by overspending — which is the inherent danger of outbidding rivals for a free agent on the open market. But the Thunder remain capable of making an inspired move to fill a long-term need — remember their midseason trade-in-vain for Tyson Chandler — and maybe Ben Gordon could emerge as a scorer to pair with Kevin Durant.”

I don't see is picking Gordon - I think he's a guy that looks out for himself, and he's had at least one noted argument with the coach during the game . . .

@Mike

@Keith

you guys are still "assuming" that Kaman will start working hard in OKC. Until I have evidence that he will, then why pay him a big contract? The Clippers fans see him ALOT more than we do, so they have a better take on it, even if it is a jaded one. Even with his spotty track record, you are going to have to give up hefty coin to acquire him.

Meanwhile, you have a younger guy in Gortat. He's also cheaper. The downside: he doesnt really have an offensive game. Upside? He's a much better defender, he's more athletic, and again he's younger. And cheaper. He's also been buried on the bench behind Superman. He's probably can't wait to show people what he can do for longer than 4-5 minute intervals. That's the guy I want on the Thunder . . .

per si

"Oklahoma City could have at least $13 million in space, but the Thunder are unlikely to make a major signing for a couple of reasons: This is a relatively weak free-agent market, and they are committed to a disciplined salary structure (similar to Detroit and San Antonio of recent years) which they're unlikely to upset by overspending -- which is the inherent danger of outbidding rivals for a free agent on the open market. But the Thunder remain capable of making an inspired move to fill a long-term need -- remember their midseason trade-in-vain for Tyson Chandler -- and maybe Ben Gordon could emerge as a scorer to pair with Kevin Durant."

@Kev
Kaman wasn't a mail-it in guy for most of his career either. He was the cornerstone of the team when Brand got hurt and played his butt off. But when your team tries over and over to destroy itself, it wears on you. It would wear on anyone. When you watch your GM trade for Zach Teamkiller Randolph and Baron "I'm only here for my movie business" Davis, wouldn't you feel pretty deflated. If then your GM also picks up a guy to replace you in Camby, wouldn't you feel like the organization has no intention of using you?

Look, Blake is a great kid, but the Clippers have ruined careers as promising as his before.

@Kev
most of what you're saying is sound logically, and I agree with it. I guess my only point is that we can't dismiss a guy who may be a slacker on a train-wreck team. in the right deal at the right price and risk, that can be a guy to change your fortunes. Kaman's ceiling is high enough to be what we need if he gets his act together. Injury history is surely checkered too, and I'm not saying I want us to go out and trade for him today, but he should at least be considered with the rest of them.

tmt :@daniel

You forgot the most important one…The wind. Going from 0 to 316 mph in under a minute! Who says pigs can’t fly…

heh

yes, we can add the understated weather comment. When asked about the tornado that just hit, the Okie replies "yeah, we had a bit of wind"

continuing...

Linda Cavanaugh, Linda Soundtrack (whatever happened to?), Kelly Ogle, I-35 construction, Rick and Ron, Fairgrounds, Myriad Gardens, Samurai (Samurai Samurai) Steakhouse, The Soul Boutique, Founders Tower, Drabek and Hill ("often imitated, never duplicated"), oh and let's not forget the Red Dog Saloon

@Orville Redenbacher

we really don't know who is going to start day one. Is Harden an upgrade? Of course, hence the draft selection. Maybe Brooks makes Harden work for it, maybe he will give the veteran the start until Harden gets up to speed - we have no clue what will happen game one. However, it's safe to assume he will start down the line . . .

@Mike

you also didn't bring up his injury history - the guy has missed seventy-seven games in the last two years . . .

To the guy who compared Zaza to Collison, those two could not be more different. Zaza can't shoot, score, or do much besides provide energy and some toughness. Collison is a bit weak for NBA center, but a good skill player. Also, Harden is your starting 2-guard from Day One, sorry Thabo. There's no question on that one. James is the better player. So you're looking at:
PG: Russell/?
SG: Harden/Sefalosha
SF: Durant/Sefalosha
PF: Green/White/Collison
C: Krstic/Collison
Who knows if Livingston can play. Watson is on the way out. Chucky is on the way out. Kyle Weaver might be able to give 5-6 minutes at point. They need a better backup point guard, a better backup shooting guard, and eventually a stronger center.

fromer = former . . .

@Keith

@Mike

I don't care if it's the Clippers or the Lakers - I want guys that don't mail it in - saying it's the Clippers is just giving excuse - do you guys honestly believe that Griffin is going to start mailing it in down the line? I seriously doubt it - that's not how he's wired - he's not going to train seven to ten hours a day in the offseason only to jog up and down the court. There's a reason why the Clippers fans don't like Kaman, and there's a reason why they will love Blake. I don't want the fromer on my team . . .

@daniel
You forgot the most important one...The wind. Going from 0 to 316 mph in under a minute! Who says pigs can't fly...

Blake will be playing in the same conference as Melo, KD, Duncan, Nowitzki, Ming, Amare, Gasol, Jefferson, Aldridge, and Boozer. Since most players continue to make one or two all-star teams even after they lose a step, it's not unreasonable to say a very good player could never make an all star team in the West. Blake is great, to be sure, but is his game flashy enough to throw him into the ring against established stars and future top picks? Maybe.

Remember that he's going to be playing for the Clippers, and that All Star players are often voted in by fans.

@daniel
I second that thought about out-of-staters being confused about your list.

Skip says a lot of things so he won't sound like an OU homer. There's a good chance he said that knowing full well it's a ridiculous thing to say.

...there's also a chance he said it because he truly believes it. Who really knows?

Skip Bayless just said Blake Griffin will never be an All-Star.

Sports knowledge!

just occurs to me that out-of-staters like Joe are probably looking at my list and thinking ??????

@Kev
To be fair, when's the last time a Clipper fan raved about anyone on their team? Some of us rail on Jeff for not being a true PF, and he has put up some pretty impressive numbers for a sophmore.

I'm not disputing that Kaman has injury concerns, but I will say that saying a Clipper veteran "doesn't play hard" is kind of like saying the sky is blue. The organization ruins players. But at the same time, many of them have gone on to much better things when traded (rejuvenated by working with professionals).

I also think the fact that there are no takers has more to do with leverage than desire. The Clips have no room for all their forwards, and absolutely need to move someone with Blake there. However, I have no doubt Dumbleavy is trying to get good value for Kaman or Camby, which just isn't possible. No one is going to give up a first rounder or young talent for a guy the Clips NEED to drop. But knowing the Clips, that's probably what they are asking.

@Kev
How hard do you think you'd play for that mess of a team? Your superstar Baron Davis is just about openly not trying and the coach is all-over the place.

A lot of interviews and digging would have to be done, but if you can find a guy like that and motivate him with a new direction and purpose on a team, that's where you get huge steals. Kaman would do wonders in the middle for us but his 4 year contract might put us out of it.

continuing...

Cowboy Hall of Fame, bricktown, Gary England/Mike Morgan/Rick Mitchell, Frontier City, Lake Hefner, Ronny Kaye, Jennifer Reynolds (yum), Cattleman's steakhouse, the Mathis Brothers...

(on the other hand, after they've learned about some of those, they might wanna leave town!)

Keith :What are everyones’ feelings on say… Kaman? He’s a 15 and 14 guy when healthy, defends well in the post, and plays better as a complement to better players.

the Clippers fans don't even like Kaman - they are trying to unload him and they are getting no takers . . .

I've read a few things on the Clipper blog and they say he's hurt alot (which we know) and he doesnt play all out . . .

he won't be coming here . . .

@Vega
Gortat and Camby should be our main targets, imo. Camby has a reasonable contract (and we know the Clips are shopping it), and he could be a good mentor for Mullens to learn from for the next couple of years.

Perhaps one of the most underrated things that could happen next season is the continued improvement of Krstic. He averaged about 10 ppg., 5.5 rpg, and 1.1 blocks in 25 minutes. If he can get back to his pre-injury averages of 17 and 7 (while maintaining his improved defensive numbers), that could really take a lot of pressure off of our young players and give us a reliable option inside.

@Jax Raging Bile Duct
I don't think Gortat is that guy, but for $5-7 million a year I think he's a pretty good value. In 2 or 3 years, once our young players have developed into a playoff team on their own, we'll trade for a dependable big man that can help us manufacture points and make the defensive job easier on our smaller guys. But if you extrapolate Gortat's numbers out to 25 minutes a game, he's averaging 8 ppg, 9 rpg, and 1.5 blocks. Probably an upgrade over Collison at about the same price.

In the press conference Saturday, the new players were asked what they knew about OKC. None of them knew a damn thing, not too suprisingly. All they knew about was the Thunder organization and, of course, KD, Jeff, Westbrook. Which is enough for now.

It will be up to us to introduce them to the gold dome bank, Count Gregor, the B.C. Clark jingle, etc.

What are everyones' feelings on say... Kaman? He's a 15 and 14 guy when healthy, defends well in the post, and plays better as a complement to better players.

@daniel

Exactly. Which, I feel like is a realistic goal for us in about 3 or four years.

@Vega
Ah, Channing Frye, the size of a 5 who plays like a SF, so they call him a PF.

I really like him as a player, but no thanks. I think we've covered the PF gluttony topic already and in no way is he a defensive post presence, hence why Zaza or Gortat are much better options.